Clown Loaches with Ich Mystery

I have 4 clown loaches and they are completely covered in a very fine
powder. I have been treating them with white spot treatmenr for 2 weeks,
but the "white spots" remain untouched. I also increased the tempearture
to over 30 degrees Celsius. The clown loaches haven't lost any colour,
but they have become very shy, but do come out when it is darker. They
also scratch themselves on rocks.

In all the 15 years I have been keeping fish I have never seen such fine
microscopic spots. They seem to be less than 0.3 millimetre and they
never grow any larger except on the tail. They certainly never reach the
size shown in this photo below.

http://www.loaches.com/species_image..._ick_large.jpg

My large adult silver shark also has some of these spots, but the
density is far less, but the spot size is the same. In fact, they almost
look like microscopic bubbles trapped under its skin.

My mollies had a few on their tail, but they has cleared up.

The tank is 330 litres. I have been changing 20% of the tank water every
couple of days. The readings for nitrites and ammonia are close to 0,
but the nitrites did spike a few days ago.

Are these spots really Ichthyophthirius? They seem completely immune to
Protozin, which is the medicine I have been giving them. Usually, white
spot clears up in a few days and the spots are much larger and snowy
looking.

Any ideas welcome!

Nikki

Can you post a pic?

Maybe host it somewhere like a yahoo group?

Have you considered that you may have a parasite?

Not heard of anything quite that small though.

Can you pick-off the spots with tweezers or similar?

Do you have a magnifying glass/ microscope?

I have picked-off larger 'flukes' from stickles and goldies.

Tana.

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"Nikki Casali" wrote in message
...
I have 4 clown loaches and they are completely covered in a very fine
powder. I have been treating them with white spot treatmenr for 2 weeks,
but the "white spots" remain untouched. I also increased the tempearture to
over 30 degrees Celsius. The clown loaches haven't lost any colour, but
they have become very shy, but do come out when it is darker. They also
scratch themselves on rocks.

In all the 15 years I have been keeping fish I have never seen such fine
microscopic spots. They seem to be less than 0.3 millimetre and they never
grow any larger except on the tail. They certainly never reach the size
shown in this photo below.

http://www.loaches.com/species_image..._ick_large.jpg

My large adult silver shark also has some of these spots, but the density
is far less, but the spot size is the same. In fact, they almost look like
microscopic bubbles trapped under its skin.

My mollies had a few on their tail, but they has cleared up.

The tank is 330 litres. I have been changing 20% of the tank water every
couple of days. The readings for nitrites and ammonia are close to 0, but
the nitrites did spike a few days ago.

Are these spots really Ichthyophthirius? They seem completely immune to
Protozin, which is the medicine I have been giving them. Usually, white
spot clears up in a few days and the spots are much larger and snowy
looking.

Any ideas welcome!

Nikki

It's certainly ich. You need to treat with Maracide, it's the best ich
medication for loaches IMO.

--
Victor Martinez
Owned and operated by the Fantastic Seven (TM)
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I have one stunted molly that appears to have a few of these spots on
its tail. I could try scraping some of, if that is possible. I do have a
microscope for the purpose of diagnosing fish illnesses, but I've never
had to use it really.

Nikki

Anandan Tanabalan wrote:
Can you post a pic?

Maybe host it somewhere like a yahoo group?

Have you considered that you may have a parasite?

Not heard of anything quite that small though.

Can you pick-off the spots with tweezers or similar?

Do you have a magnifying glass/ microscope?

I have picked-off larger 'flukes' from stickles and goldies.

Tana.

Victor Martinez wrote:

It's certainly ich. You need to treat with Maracide, it's the best ich
medication for loaches IMO.


I don't think I can get Maracide in the UK.

Would you agree that an infection of ich on a clown loach could possibly
manifest itself as very fine powder and not the usual larger salt
grains? If you took a pinch full of household salt and crushed it even
further and sprinkled it very evenly right across a loach, this would be
the effect I am seeing.

I don't have a digital camera with the resolution that could render
these fine grains. A photo would have to be taken at very close range
and with enough light.

I've just had a look at one of the loaches - it's very difficult as they
will easily retreat into their hiding places. The spots are not really
visible from a foot away if the loach is side on. If the loach turns so
that its side is at an oblique angle to my line of sight, its head or
tail almost pointing towards me, then I can see the hundreds of spots.
There is only 1 spot on its body that I can consider to look like
traditional ich and it is close to a millimetre. So why don't the rest
grow to that size? Maybe what I am looking at is only the scarring left
by the ich that have fallen off?

I just hope it is ich and not some other parasite I should be treating.


Nikki

Nikki Casali wrote:
I don't think I can get Maracide in the UK.

I think it's made by a french company, perhaps they sell it by another
name? Here's a good page with lots of info about ich in general and
loaches in particular:
http://www.caloriesperhour.com/fish/notes_ich.html

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I have used "interpet white spot +" in my quarantine tank a few times.
Used to treat Plecs, goldies and minnows in Scotland.

Looked to the web and found ich-y stuff; apparently can be quite small

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Ichthyophthirius

T.

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This communication and the information contained in it are confidential and
may be legally privileged. The content is intended solely for the use of the
individual or entity to whom it is addressed and others authorised to
receive it. If you are not the intended recipient it is hereby brought to
your notice that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or dissemination, or
alternatively the taking of any action in reliance on it, is strictly
prohibited and may constitute grounds for action, either civil or criminal,
at the instigation of A Tanabalan.

"Nikki Casali" wrote in message
...
Victor Martinez wrote:

It's certainly ich. You need to treat with Maracide, it's the best ich
medication for loaches IMO.


I don't think I can get Maracide in the UK.

Would you agree that an infection of ich on a clown loach could possibly
manifest itself as very fine powder and not the usual larger salt grains?
If you took a pinch full of household salt and crushed it even further and
sprinkled it very evenly right across a loach, this would be the effect I
am seeing.

I don't have a digital camera with the resolution that could render these
fine grains. A photo would have to be taken at very close range and with
enough light.

I've just had a look at one of the loaches - it's very difficult as they
will easily retreat into their hiding places. The spots are not really
visible from a foot away if the loach is side on. If the loach turns so
that its side is at an oblique angle to my line of sight, its head or tail
almost pointing towards me, then I can see the hundreds of spots. There is
only 1 spot on its body that I can consider to look like traditional ich
and it is close to a millimetre. So why don't the rest grow to that size?
Maybe what I am looking at is only the scarring left by the ich that have
fallen off?

I just hope it is ich and not some other parasite I should be treating.


Nikki

On Wed, 01 Sep 2004 09:25:56 +0100, Nikki Casali
wrote:

I have 4 clown loaches and they are completely covered in a very fine
powder. I have been treating them with white spot treatmenr for 2 weeks,
but the "white spots" remain untouched.
....
In all the 15 years I have been keeping fish I have never seen such fine
microscopic spots.

Sounds like Chilodonella.

25 ppm formalin repeated three times with three days between each
treatment, and a large water change 24 hours after each treatment,
took care of what was likely Chilodonella here. Recovery was almost
instant, within a few hours of the first treatment fishes were free of
any symptoms.

Ok, I've managed to get together a web page with some photos. My video
camera has managed to take some good photos and the lighting was very good.

Here's adhoc the page:
http://www.ncasali.demon.co.uk/

The first image is good. Is it ich? I've only ever seen them much larger.

Nikki

Anandan Tanabalan wrote:

Can you post a pic?

Maybe host it somewhere like a yahoo group?

Have you considered that you may have a parasite?

Not heard of anything quite that small though.

Can you pick-off the spots with tweezers or similar?

Do you have a magnifying glass/ microscope?

I have picked-off larger 'flukes' from stickles and goldies.

Tana.

I'd say it's definitely ich.

Nikki Casali wrote:
The first image is good. Is it ich? I've only ever seen them much larger.

--
Victor Martinez
Owned and operated by the Fantastic Seven (TM)
Send your spam he
Email me he