Algae damn

Ozdude wrote:


Are you over feeding? It doesn't sound like anything other than that
to me,
unless there is something in your water out of the tap.

Oz


Ya know, Oz, I'm not sure. When I was a kid, and warned about
overfeeding Sammy the goldfish, overfeeding meant using only the food
he could eat in 5 minutes. Now, I'm starting to understand overfeeding
from a different prospective. Just a few years ago I had a tank
running crystal clear for two years. What I didn't know is that the
nitrates were probably running in the mid two hundreds! I just had a
humungous bacteria colony able to process all the food.

So when I've been feeding this tank, I've been very careful, and
actually proud of myself for not overfeeding. Or have I been? I feed
once a day, only the amount the neons and angels can eat in about 2
minutes. In that two minutes however, they absolutely gorge themselves
and turn into round balls with head, tail and fins. When I give them
live or frozen brine shrimp, the angel fish have extended stomachs that
look as if they will pop!

So my fish aren't over fed, just ask them. :) But I think I'm
overfeeding my _tank_. With the plants I've got going and water
changes my nitrate levels are staying low, around 10, not more than 20.
After the last water change, the nitrates were only 5 or so. I'm going
to try less food, start 'em off on a new years diet, see if I can keep
the nitrates at zero from food, and then either feed a bit more or dose
KNO3 to boost the plants.

steve

Richard wrote:
In article ,
Elaine T wrote:

Richard wrote:

In article , js1 wrote:


On 2005-01-18, Richard wrote:


Stop dosing phosphorus. Your fish food should provide enough of it.

ALL fishfood?


Absolutely! ;-)


Ok, well roughly how much phosphate is there in white worms fed pumpernikel
fed to fish 3X a week and nothing else? (my water is pretty cold)



It's not what's in the food...it's what comes out the other end of your
fish. ;-)


It's gotta be in the food, fish can't synthesize phosphate.


Heh. No living organism can transmute elements - you're taking me far
too seriously. Wheee...alchemy in the fishtank! My point was that the
phosphate in fish food is used by the fish and then excreted. Of
course, the intial source of phosphate into the tank is the food.

Steve,
ALL fishfood has phosphorus and nitrogen, whether it's plant or animal
based. Phosphorus is an essential component of DNA, RNA, cell
membranes, and the cell's energy systems, and nitrogen comes from
protein. If you're worried, first follow Richard's advice and stop all
phosphate. Personally, with nitrates between 5 and 20, I'd stop dosing
that as well because you're also adding nitrate to the tank with your
fishfood.

See how your plants do for a few weeks after Richard's water change
regime with no added N or P. If your nitrate actually zeros out, you
might add some back. Wait a few weeks more and if you still feel an
irresistable urge to add P, add a fraction of what you were and be
prepared to change lots of water at the first signs of increased algae
growth.

--
__ Elaine T __
__' http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__

Elaine T wrote:
Steve,
ALL fishfood has phosphorus and nitrogen, whether it's plant or
animal
based. Phosphorus is an essential component of DNA, RNA, cell
membranes, and the cell's energy systems, and nitrogen comes from
protein. If you're worried, first follow Richard's advice and stop
all
phosphate. Personally, with nitrates between 5 and 20, I'd stop
dosing
that as well because you're also adding nitrate to the tank with your

fishfood.

See how your plants do for a few weeks after Richard's water change
regime with no added N or P. If your nitrate actually zeros out,
you
might add some back. Wait a few weeks more and if you still feel an
irresistable urge to add P, add a fraction of what you were and be
prepared to change lots of water at the first signs of increased
algae
growth.


k.

(thanks for taking time to reply)

After the blackout and massive water changes, I'll let the thing
stabilize a bit and see where the nitrates stand. Maybe I got a little
too agressive with my dosing, thinking I as some kind 'o plant king.


steve

Heh. No living organism can transmute elements - you're taking me far
too seriously. Wheee...alchemy in the fishtank! My point was that the
phosphate in fish food is used by the fish and then excreted. Of
course, the intial source of phosphate into the tank is the food.

Right, and I only feed live whitw worms fed with pumpernikel 3X a week.
Does this mean I'm adding no, low or high phospahtes? Honest question,
I have no idea.

--
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Richard Sexton wrote:
Heh. No living organism can transmute elements - you're taking me far
too seriously. Wheee...alchemy in the fishtank! My point was that the
phosphate in fish food is used by the fish and then excreted. Of
course, the intial source of phosphate into the tank is the food.


Right, and I only feed live whitw worms fed with pumpernikel 3X a week.
Does this mean I'm adding no, low or high phospahtes? Honest question,
I have no idea.

Sorry...I thought that was Steve's question. First, you DO have to take
the fish's metabolism into account. If the fish are actively growing,
they may absorb more phosphorus from their food. So the assumption that
what goes into the tank is exactly what passes through a growing fish
and fertilizes the tank is not perfect.

Hmm...My bottle of TetraMin says minimum phosphorus is 1.3% and my
ColorBits are minimum 1.5%. All Hagen NutraFin foods are formulated to
have only a minimum of 0.6% and a maximum of 0.9%. They talk about
their phosphorus philosophy here.
http://www.hagen.com/usa/aquatic/nut...ax/lowphos.cfm

As for worms, tetra delica bloodworms have min 0.9% and I found an
article at
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/c...35746/ABSTRACT
showing freeze dried earthworms at 0.8%, waxworms at 1.2%, and mealworms
varying widely from 0.8% to 1.4% phosphorus depending on the strain.
Hikari reports 0.1% phosphorus max for their freeze dried bloodworms and
tubifex, but that does not appear to be compatible with living worms, so
I doubt their number.

So...you're probably feeding medium phosphate level food, around 0.8% to
1% if your worms are similar to others. As for amount, dunno. I
haven't seen you feed but I know how much a hungry killi can eat!

Is that the kind of info that you were after?

--
__ Elaine T __
__' http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__

As for worms, tetra delica bloodworms have min 0.9% and I found an
article at
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/c...35746/ABSTRACT
showing freeze dried earthworms at 0.8%, waxworms at 1.2%, and mealworms
varying widely from 0.8% to 1.4% phosphorus depending on the strain.
Hikari reports 0.1% phosphorus max for their freeze dried bloodworms and
tubifex, but that does not appear to be compatible with living worms, so
I doubt their number.

So...you're probably feeding medium phosphate level food, around 0.8% to
1% if your worms are similar to others. As for amount, dunno. I
haven't seen you feed but I know how much a hungry killi can eat!

The funny thing is the Ammano shrimp eat more white worms than the
killies do.

Yahbut, tubifex eat sewage and presumably there's tons of phosphates
in there. Wouldnt this all really depends on the amount of phosphate in
pumpernikle bread I feed the worms?

--
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Richard Sexton wrote:
As for worms, tetra delica bloodworms have min 0.9% and I found an
article at
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/c...35746/ABSTRACT
showing freeze dried earthworms at 0.8%, waxworms at 1.2%, and mealworms
varying widely from 0.8% to 1.4% phosphorus depending on the strain.
Hikari reports 0.1% phosphorus max for their freeze dried bloodworms and
tubifex, but that does not appear to be compatible with living worms, so
I doubt their number.

So...you're probably feeding medium phosphate level food, around 0.8% to
1% if your worms are similar to others. As for amount, dunno. I
haven't seen you feed but I know how much a hungry killi can eat!


The funny thing is the Ammano shrimp eat more white worms than the
killies do.

Yahbut, tubifex eat sewage and presumably there's tons of phosphates
in there. Wouldnt this all really depends on the amount of phosphate in
pumpernikle bread I feed the worms?

Not so much. The worms have to build DNA, RNA, cell membranes, and all
the other chemicals that contain phosphate from the bread. They will
retain the phosphate and other valuable minerals from their diet and
excrete the excess nitrogen and fiber. If you were phosphate starving
your worm cultures, they would not grow and reproduce well.

There may be some bread (relatively low in phosphate) in the worm's
digestive tract when you feed but the worm itself is the phosphate source.

--
__ Elaine T __
__' http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__

55g tank, 48L 20H 12W
pH 6.7 with C02 injection at 20ppm
KH 3deg
temp 79f
Nitrates between 5 and 20, fluctuate with the amount of KNO3 I add.
Potassium and Phosphorus added minimally per the dosing pages. I shoot
for the optimun amount. There are a couple of plant spikes (trace
elements) deep under the large plants.

I've got 5 ottos in there, and just added a couple of large amano
shrimp, but those critters aren't going to touch this fuzz stuff if it
comes back strong like this past week.
thanks for any hints, suggestions,
steve


I've had an algae problem in my 90gal with a similar setup. It's not a
Phophate problem, you can try and limit phophates but you'll notice all
your plant growth slow down which means less competition for the algae
(been there, done that).
Algae loves crap.. yeah the stuff from the fish. NH4, urea etc. That heavy
fishload will be causing the same problems as mine are (big fishload also).

I'd recommend doing what you already did for plant cleanup (a dip in
chlorine, H2O2 etc) to get them free and a head start, but I would also do
a large water change with a massive gravel vacuum. When I pulled up all my
plants for a cleaning I did the water change at the same time and vacuumed
all the gravel hard and deep until it was clear. So no more crap rotting
and that about fixed it in one shot... it's in my books now as a bi-yearly
(?) thing as long as I keep my present fishload.

P.

BTW hope those spikes are trace only, no urea or such for an N source.

On 2005-01-20, Pete wrote:

I've had an algae problem in my 90gal with a similar setup. It's not a
Phophate problem, you can try and limit phophates but you'll notice all
your plant growth slow down which means less competition for the algae
(been there, done that).
Algae loves crap.. yeah the stuff from the fish. NH4, urea etc. That heavy
fishload will be causing the same problems as mine are (big fishload also).

I'd recommend doing what you already did for plant cleanup (a dip in
chlorine, H2O2 etc) to get them free and a head start, but I would also do
a large water change with a massive gravel vacuum. When I pulled up all my
plants for a cleaning I did the water change at the same time and vacuumed
all the gravel hard and deep until it was clear. So no more crap rotting
and that about fixed it in one shot... it's in my books now as a bi-yearly
(?) thing as long as I keep my present fishload.


Well, now you're arguing a causality problem. I can't give a scientific
explaination, but I'd have to guess the phosphates are feeding the
algae. The algae is growing so fast that it's also taking up the
nitrates (produced by the decaying stuff) as well. My guess would
be by backing down on the phosphates, it slows the growth of the algae,
and gives the plants a chance to fight for the nitrates.

--
"I have to decide between two equally frightening options.
If I wanted to do that, I'd vote." --Duckman

Pete wrote:


I'd recommend doing what you already did for plant cleanup (a dip in
chlorine, H2O2 etc) to get them free and a head start, but I would
also do
a large water change with a massive gravel vacuum. When I pulled up
all my
plants for a cleaning I did the water change at the same time and
vacuumed
all the gravel hard and deep until it was clear. So no more crap
rotting
and that about fixed it in one shot... it's in my books now as a
bi-yearly
(?) thing as long as I keep my present fishload.

P.

BTW hope those spikes are trace only, no urea or such for an N
source.

Ya know, call me stupid, but I think you've hit the nail on the head.
After my first foray with these plant fert bombs, I had an immediate
explosion of green water. I won that battle. Now, shortly after
placing these bombs again, shazzam! algae infestation of epic
proportions. I did check the ingredients, and thought they were safe.
Mostly the trace elements, with very low nitrogen or phosphorous. I'll
look again and see if they actually identify urea or NO4. If I leave
them covered up and undisturbed I think (hope) the plants will eat
them.

I'm diligent with my gravel vacc'ing, but 34 fish, fed to nearly
popping, will produce a large amount of waste in between cleanings.
Now, I've put the two large angels and half (11) the tetras in another
tank so I think I can control the N better.
thanks for the advice,
steve