Dogs, mirrors, self awareness...

On 11 Sep 2005 16:37:02 -0700, wrote:


Rudy Canoza wrote:
lying ****wit David Harrison lied:

On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 17:42:45 -0700, Svetlana Monsoon wrote:


there is also debate as to the value of the test as
applied to animals who rely primarily on senses other
than vision, such as dogs."

They made a good point.


Yes. From what I've read on my own, the test has
pretty much determined that most animals don't have
self-recognition, but that does not mean they don't have
any awareness of themselves.

No one pretends it is the only test, but an animal who
passes it is judged self aware, and undoubtedly is.

Dogs do not have self awareness. They don't not have
it *because* they fail the test, but they do fail the
test, and that leads one to think that they lack self
awareness. Note that dogs *can* recognize other dogs
that they know by sight, as can cats. But cats and
dogs both fail the mirror test. Neither shows *any*
evidence of self awareness: they do not know that they
exist in a particular time and place, and they have no
sense of past or future.

They do not show any evidence that we can recognize as being
self-awareness, but that doesn't mean that they do not have it. Science
is about being open to possibilities, and not coming to conclusions
after one type of test. As the quote I have posted said, scientists are
still debating whether the test really proves anything or if the
results have been properly interpreted.

In a way that's what the subjects are doing...they are aware of the
image in the mirror, but fail to interpret it properly. The reason they fail
is not necessarily because they have no concept of themselves. Other
things about their behavior and their known abilities indicate that they
do have some concept(s) of themselves, and nothing about the mirror
test indicates that the reason they don't interpret their own reflection
properly is because they have no concept of themselves.

And until we can read a dog's
mind, we really can't say what it is aware of and what it is ignorant
of. All we can do is speculate.

Btw, gorillas failed the mirror test, but one gorilla, Koko, has passed
it. Koko being a gorilla raised by humans and lived with them in a
human environment her entire life and was taught to communicate with
people via sign language. What does this show? That her brain is wired
differently than other gorrilas? Perhaps, her passing the mirror test
is a result of the environment she has been raised in. We still don't
know. Concluding that passing or failing the mirror test is an error
proof indicator of self-awareness is faulty thinking.

The mirror test indicates that they don't have self recognition,
not that they don't have self awareness. And really it doesn't even
show that, but only that they don't understand the reflection in a
mirror is their own reflection. They recognise their own territorial
markings, which is an indication that they also have some form(s)
of self recognition.