underwater gravel

Trevor Stenson wrote:
In article .com,
"carlrs" wrote:

Jen wrote:
So what's the general consensus on using undergravel filters? Are they good
or bad?


Jen

I have used UGFs extensively over the years. I personally do not
recommend them do to the extra maintenance sometimes needed (especially
with flat plate UGFs), especially if poorly cared for. But UGFs do not
deserve all the flack they get either. Proper gravel (#3) with about
2-3" of depth works best. The Nektonics UGF was actually very good and
I actually clocked higher flow rates with the same air pump with these
UGF filters vs. the more common flat plate design (placing a 1 gallon
jug just under the out flow and timing the rate of fill).
There are better filters now, but even some newer ones popularity are
based in hype (bio wheel comes to mind). I recommend redundancy with
two filters. In a smaller aquarium a HOB with an internal or sponge
filter is effective, or at least a HOB with a pre filter attached for
improved bio filtration.

For more aquarium filtration information:
http://www.americanaquariumproducts....iltration.html

Also I have an article about Bio Wheels he
http://aquarium-answers.blogspot.com/

Carl

I totally concur with the UG proponents.

Hi, haven't been around this NG much since I set up a tank about a year
ago. I had tanks through most of my teenage years and recently as an
adult - 20 years latter - I set up another.

First of all before I chime in on UG filters I have to say that I guess
I forgot how much work and constant care an aquarium requires to get it
in good balance and keep it that way. I just don't have the time to
watch my tanks that I did as a youth. As a result I have set up a
stringent tank-care schedule and keep mostly hardy fish.

What surprised me, though, when I went to buy my current aquarium is
that I couldn't find a UG filter system at any retail store. The staff
would also keep telling me that they simply don't work.

I agree that they have a bad, and I think, undeserved reputation these
days. However, I'm a also big proponent of the dual-filtration system:
having say an outside power filter combined with an UG filter. I had
this as a youth in a 25 gallon tank and I swear that regular aside from
normal required attention this tank was a beautifully balanced system.
I nice stable ecosystem.

The trick is not to overfeed, use relatively large gravel and do your
normal tank care. I recently put a UG filter in my current tank and
already notice a definite difference in the quality of the environment
and the health of my fish. A lot of that may have to do with my annual
'big clean' that I just did - but I think the UG filter (that I had to
buy online) is helping as well and will continue to do so if used
properly.

In addition to Carl's points, which I obviously agree with, I've found a
really good online article that talks about the proper use of the UG
filter including the use of a dual filtration set-up:

http://www.aquariumfish.com/aquarium...01&cid=3806&se
arch=

I'm not typically a conspiracy theorist but It seems to me that a cheap
UG filter has given away to the numerous chemical treatments that the
stores hook you into buying to keep you tank biochemistry healthy. I
don't remember having to buy all that stuff as a youth - and like I said
I had good success with my aquariums for years.

Cheers,

TS
Edmonton SCTV Locations:
http://members.shaw.ca/pumpkin27/iwebber2

My Blog feed:
feed://members.shaw.ca/kitschy/iwebber/TheStenonsNewDigs/Blog/rss.xml

That was an interesting article you posted. I have been the process of
writing a more in depth article about this subject, I have just been
too busy to finish and research the article for any relevant studies (I
do discus UGFs in somewhat in my filtration article:
http://www.americanaquariumproducts....iltration.html )

The interesting point about UGF and many other aquatic subjects is that
these methods and products seem to go thru fads (I have got caught up
in them too, even in my service business), but when I stop and go back
and look at the facts, such as UGFs, these filters are not as bad as
all the bad press they get (this is not to say they are without some
problems). As I pointed out earlier the type of plate makes a BIG
difference in flow and mulm that will cause problems with UGFs.

What I find interesting is that many of these UGF bashers have not done
their homework when it comes to HOB filters, in particular the Penguin.
These filters are riding the crest of un-deserved popularity (and I
admit to helping before I did my homework). As your article pointed out
HOBs are not very good biologically, and the bio-wheels in particular
are over rated. The theory behind the bio wheel is excellent, but in
practical application water deposits and more destroy the surface area
of these wheels and the point of more oxygen in the air for bio
bacteria is true, there is plenty in a properly maintained aquarium,
otherwise you have more serious issues for the fish (compare live rock
in the tank to a wet dry out of the tank). I have a more in depth
article about bio wheels in this blog:
http://aquarium-answers.blogspot.com/

I do have to differ with the article in regards to Sponge filters.
These too were filters that have swung in popularity (and again I also
fell victim too). When I originally used them I used the cheaper Tetra
and others, but these had poor flow designs and even more important
poor sponge media designs. When I re-discovered the Hydro Sponge (as I
started testing many different products in my service business often
side by side with business clients such as the Bahooka Restaurant), I
found them to have a much better sponge design than the others (they
hold a patent) that allows much more bio bacteria and less mechanical
clogging (one of the week spots for some sponge filters). I have found
when comaparing apples to apples when comes to sponge filter with other
filters for bio capacity they come out favorably.
Here is my article about sponge filtration:
http://www.americanaquariumproducts....iltration.html

Carl

What has changed is more people are keeping much fussier fancy GF with deep bodies.
those plain old comets or pond fantails won at fairs can stand pretty bad conditions
without dying. not so the fancier GF with long fins.
We still call them "goldfish bowls" and they were never appropriate for GF because
too little water and high maintenance. the same is now true for UGF, they are high
maintenance compared to bare bottom tanks with good external filters.

a bare bottom tank does not require chemical treatments. for an absolute newbie who
has never had any kind of fish, and for people who want a low maintenance set up,
nothing compares to BBT. Typically the tank is set up with double the usual amount
of external filters. So a 20 gallon tank would have a filter rated for a 40 gallon
tank. 2 big airstones and a heater to keep temps constant. it is not easy to get a
couple fish and cycle this kind of tank without using some biofilter startup, either
a filter pad from a cycled tank, some biospira, or start with some fish food and do a
fishless cycling before getting the fish. however, once this is up and running it is
very stable and easy to maintain. water changes once a week, rinse out the filter
pad(s).
the only thing easier is a pond with a veggie filter. Ingrid


Trevor Stenson wrote:
I agree that they have a bad, and I think, undeserved reputation these
days.
The trick is not to overfeed, use relatively large gravel and do your
normal tank care.
I'm not typically a conspiracy theorist but It seems to me that a cheap
UG filter has given away to the numerous chemical treatments that the
stores hook you into buying to keep you tank biochemistry healthy.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?...s=Group+lookup
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold website.
I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan

wrote:
What has changed is more people are keeping much fussier fancy GF with deep bodies.
those plain old comets or pond fantails won at fairs can stand pretty bad conditions
without dying. not so the fancier GF with long fins.
We still call them "goldfish bowls" and they were never appropriate for GF because
too little water and high maintenance. the same is now true for UGF, they are high
maintenance compared to bare bottom tanks with good external filters.

Yes Goldfish bowls are hardly appropriate and never have been. But to
imply that UGFs worked before and do not now as compared to others is
presumptious. There are definately better filters, I have not sold a
UGF for years to a client. But there is a difference between UGFs and
the cheaper flat plate UGF that took over the maket and made aquarists
who do not do there home work think that they are all equal.
Also as for HOB external filters this where more aquarist homework
needs to be done as most are poor bio filters (although a pre filter
attached to htem improve this). The bio wheels are not as effective as
a good Sponge filter (not all sponge filters are equal either, of which
I admit to the assumption after poor results with some Tetra Sponge
filters that they do not work, the patented Hydro Sponge Filters are
superior)
http://americanaquariumproducts.com/SpongeFilter.html
A properly aerated aquarium (with a proper Redox Potential) provides
all the oxygen the bacterial colonies in a sponge filter need.



a bare bottom tank does not require chemical treatments. for an absolute newbie who
has never had any kind of fish, and for people who want a low maintenance set up,

No arguing with the ease of a BBT, especially with a Sponge filter
which is how my breeder and hospital tanks are set up. But most new
aquarists are NOT going to want this spartan a set up.

nothing compares to BBT. Typically the tank is set up with double the usual amount
of external filters. So a 20 gallon tank would have a filter rated for a 40 gallon
tank. 2 big airstones and a heater to keep temps constant. it is not easy to get a
couple fish and cycle this kind of tank without using some biofilter startup, either
a filter pad from a cycled tank, some biospira, or start with some fish food and do a
fishless cycling before getting the fish. however, once this is up and running it is
very stable and easy to maintain. water changes once a week, rinse out the filter
pad(s).
the only thing easier is a pond with a veggie filter. Ingrid

Again veggie filters are great, although my pond installations always
included a pressurized filter such as the Clear Stream and/or a Hydro
Pond Filter for mechanical and additional bio filtration. In So Cal I
usually included a UV Sterilizer too.


Trevor Stenson wrote:
I agree that they have a bad, and I think, undeserved reputation these
days.
The trick is not to overfeed, use relatively large gravel and do your
normal tank care.
I'm not typically a conspiracy theorist but It seems to me that a cheap
UG filter has given away to the numerous chemical treatments that the
stores hook you into buying to keep you tank biochemistry healthy.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?...s=Group+lookup
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold website.
I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan

Carl
http://americanaquariumproducts.com/...formation.html
http://www.americanaquariumproducts....iltration.html

http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/c...re1.htm#GRAVEL
GRAVEL
Gravel is not recommended for keeping goldfish.
1. Gravel is the leading cause of sudden death when gravel gets stuck in their
throat.
2. Food drifts down into gravel and rots. Goldfish will sift and work thru the
gravel looking for food. Rotting food is toxic for goldfish.
3. Gravel creates "dead" spots where anaerobic bacteria thrive and secrete toxic
gases.
4. Organic compounds contribute to the waste in the tank, driving up nitrate levels.
High organic loads in gravel can easily equal the waste output of an extra fish for
two which drastically lowers the "carrying capacity" of the tank (1 gf per 10
gallons).
5. Organic compounds are acidic and can lower the pH to the point that it kills off
the biobugs. The nitrite converting bacteria are the first to die, which causes a
nitrous acid spike. This will cause a sudden crash that kills the entire biofilter.
Unlike cycling, where the keeper knows and is checking for wastes and changing water,
sudden crashes are not detected until the fish are showing severe symptoms.
6. It is more work to clean gravel and do water changes. Any gravel or rocks on the
bottom require a bell of some kinds to suck up debris that gets caught under the
items. In a bare bottom tank, the circulation of the water in the tank means all the
crud and wastes are sucked out by the filter intake. There is no siphoning required.
7. Fish can be sucked up into a siphon bell and be maimed or killed every time the
gravel is cleaned. When there is no gravel to clean, a nylon sockie can be put over
the siphon and even fry wont get sucked out with the waste water.


"Jen" wrote:

So what's the general consensus on using undergravel filters? Are they good
or bad?


Jen




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?...s=Group+lookup
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold website.
I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan

wrote:

http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/c...re1.htm#GRAVEL
GRAVEL
Gravel is not recommended for keeping goldfish.

Interesting opinion, but...

1. Gravel is the leading cause of sudden death when gravel gets stuck in
their throat.

Possible perhaps, but never seen it actually happen.

2. Food drifts down into gravel and rots. Goldfish will sift and work
thru the
gravel looking for food. Rotting food is toxic for goldfish.

I imagine rotting food is potentially bad for all fish, but then that's why
you clean the gravel. Mind you I notice fish tend not to eat 'rotting
food'. They tend to be a little selective.

3. Gravel creates "dead" spots where anaerobic bacteria thrive and secrete
toxic gases.

Toxic gasses? Ammonia perhaps. Of course that's why you clean gravel.

4. Organic compounds contribute to the waste in the tank, driving up
nitrate levels. High organic loads in gravel can easily equal the waste
output of an extra fish for two which drastically lowers the "carrying
capacity" of the tank (1 gf per 10 gallons).

Nitrate factory, sure. That's why you clean the gravel. Nitrates can be
great, but we know about plants and goldfish

5. Organic compounds are acidic and can lower the pH to the point that it
kills off the biobugs. The nitrite converting bacteria are the first to
die, which causes a
nitrous acid spike. This will cause a sudden crash that kills the entire
biofilter. Unlike cycling, where the keeper knows and is checking for
wastes and changing water, sudden crashes are not detected until the fish
are showing severe symptoms.

That's why you clean the gravel. And of course with correct kH the pH is not
going to crash on you... And we all check the parameters now and then,
right

6. It is more work to clean gravel and do water changes. Any gravel or
rocks on the bottom require a bell of some kinds to suck up debris that
gets caught under the items. In a bare bottom tank, the circulation of the
water in the tank means all the crud and wastes are sucked out by the
filter intake. There is no siphoning required.

If you want to save work maybe, but I like the look of gravel and it gives
you somewhere to stick plants (anubias with gf of course - as well as some
salad for them to snack on). But even in a bare bottom you have to clean up
wastes. The crap still sits all over the bottom anyway.

7. Fish can be sucked up into a siphon bell and be maimed or killed every
time the
gravel is cleaned. When there is no gravel to clean, a nylon sockie can
be put over the siphon and even fry wont get sucked out with the waste
water.

This is the silliest one. The whole idea of the bell siphon is to reduce the
suction so that the gravel isn't sucked out. Fish don't get sucked into the
siphon. And fry? In a goldfish tank? Yum!

Not great reasons to go to a bare bottom. Point 6 to make vacuuming easier
maybe.

But this was about UGF, and with UGF you change many of the points above in
that there is circulation in the gravel and so it's not "anaerobic"...

amosf © Tim Fairchild wrote:
wrote:

http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/c...re1.htm#GRAVEL
GRAVEL
Gravel is not recommended for keeping goldfish.

Interesting opinion, but...

1. Gravel is the leading cause of sudden death when gravel gets stuck in
their throat.

Possible perhaps, but never seen it actually happen.

2. Food drifts down into gravel and rots. Goldfish will sift and work
thru the
gravel looking for food. Rotting food is toxic for goldfish.

I imagine rotting food is potentially bad for all fish, but then that's why
you clean the gravel. Mind you I notice fish tend not to eat 'rotting
food'. They tend to be a little selective.

3. Gravel creates "dead" spots where anaerobic bacteria thrive and secrete
toxic gases.

Toxic gasses? Ammonia perhaps. Of course that's why you clean gravel.

4. Organic compounds contribute to the waste in the tank, driving up
nitrate levels. High organic loads in gravel can easily equal the waste
output of an extra fish for two which drastically lowers the "carrying
capacity" of the tank (1 gf per 10 gallons).

Nitrate factory, sure. That's why you clean the gravel. Nitrates can be
great, but we know about plants and goldfish

5. Organic compounds are acidic and can lower the pH to the point that it
kills off the biobugs. The nitrite converting bacteria are the first to
die, which causes a
nitrous acid spike. This will cause a sudden crash that kills the entire
biofilter. Unlike cycling, where the keeper knows and is checking for
wastes and changing water, sudden crashes are not detected until the fish
are showing severe symptoms.

That's why you clean the gravel. And of course with correct kH the pH is not
going to crash on you... And we all check the parameters now and then,
right

6. It is more work to clean gravel and do water changes. Any gravel or
rocks on the bottom require a bell of some kinds to suck up debris that
gets caught under the items. In a bare bottom tank, the circulation of the
water in the tank means all the crud and wastes are sucked out by the
filter intake. There is no siphoning required.

If you want to save work maybe, but I like the look of gravel and it gives
you somewhere to stick plants (anubias with gf of course - as well as some
salad for them to snack on). But even in a bare bottom you have to clean up
wastes. The crap still sits all over the bottom anyway.

7. Fish can be sucked up into a siphon bell and be maimed or killed every
time the
gravel is cleaned. When there is no gravel to clean, a nylon sockie can
be put over the siphon and even fry wont get sucked out with the waste
water.

This is the silliest one. The whole idea of the bell siphon is to reduce the
suction so that the gravel isn't sucked out. Fish don't get sucked into the
siphon. And fry? In a goldfish tank? Yum!

Not great reasons to go to a bare bottom. Point 6 to make vacuuming easier
maybe.

But this was about UGF, and with UGF you change many of the points above in
that there is circulation in the gravel and so it's not "anaerobic"...

Whew! I can see all these points, but I have a little tank of about 40
litres with four decent goldfish and two white cloud minnows in it.
There's gravel on the bottom and all the plants are plastic. It's away
from any direct sunlight and I allow algae on the end and back panels. I
have a very good external pump/filter hung on the outside of the tank,
and change around half the water three or four times a year. I dump
chlorinated water straight from the tap on the assumption that what's
already in the tank will dilute anything unpleasant for the fish. Apart
from that all I do is feed them lightly once a day. This little tank has
run without a single hiccup for over two years now, and brought endless
enjoyment to me and the grandkids when they come to stay. In fact each
grandchild has his/her own fish they have named.

Now, my point in all this is simply this - people often remark on how
clean and fresh the tank looks, and how healthy and energetic the fish
are. I never check Ph or any other parametres - the only three
principles I use are - (a) watch the feed quantity, (b) understock the
tank, (c) have a good filter setup and keep it running sweetly. So,
ahem, why the need for all these other things, or am I just plain lucky?
I am not seeking to be provocative, and I respect the obvious experience
and knowledge of others in this group, which is far greater than mine. I
just want to know if all this extra stuff is good for the fish.

Cheers,
--
Peter in New Zealand. (Pull the plug out to reply.)
Collector of old cameras, tropical fish fancier, good coffee nutter, and
compulsive computer fiddler.

Peter in New Zealand wrote:

amosf © Tim Fairchild wrote:
wrote:

http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/c...re1.htm#GRAVEL
GRAVEL
Gravel is not recommended for keeping goldfish.

Interesting opinion, but...

1. Gravel is the leading cause of sudden death when gravel gets stuck in
their throat.

Possible perhaps, but never seen it actually happen.

2. Food drifts down into gravel and rots. Goldfish will sift and work
thru the
gravel looking for food. Rotting food is toxic for goldfish.

I imagine rotting food is potentially bad for all fish, but then that's
why you clean the gravel. Mind you I notice fish tend not to eat 'rotting
food'. They tend to be a little selective.

3. Gravel creates "dead" spots where anaerobic bacteria thrive and
secrete toxic gases.

Toxic gasses? Ammonia perhaps. Of course that's why you clean gravel.

4. Organic compounds contribute to the waste in the tank, driving up
nitrate levels. High organic loads in gravel can easily equal the waste
output of an extra fish for two which drastically lowers the "carrying
capacity" of the tank (1 gf per 10 gallons).

Nitrate factory, sure. That's why you clean the gravel. Nitrates can be
great, but we know about plants and goldfish

5. Organic compounds are acidic and can lower the pH to the point that
it kills off the biobugs. The nitrite converting bacteria are the first
to die, which causes a
nitrous acid spike. This will cause a sudden crash that kills the
entire biofilter. Unlike cycling, where the keeper knows and is checking
for wastes and changing water, sudden crashes are not detected until the
fish are showing severe symptoms.

That's why you clean the gravel. And of course with correct kH the pH is
not going to crash on you... And we all check the parameters now and
then, right

6. It is more work to clean gravel and do water changes. Any gravel or
rocks on the bottom require a bell of some kinds to suck up debris that
gets caught under the items. In a bare bottom tank, the circulation of
the water in the tank means all the crud and wastes are sucked out by
the filter intake. There is no siphoning required.

If you want to save work maybe, but I like the look of gravel and it
gives you somewhere to stick plants (anubias with gf of course - as well
as some salad for them to snack on). But even in a bare bottom you have
to clean up wastes. The crap still sits all over the bottom anyway.

7. Fish can be sucked up into a siphon bell and be maimed or killed
every time the
gravel is cleaned. When there is no gravel to clean, a nylon sockie can
be put over the siphon and even fry wont get sucked out with the waste
water.

This is the silliest one. The whole idea of the bell siphon is to reduce
the suction so that the gravel isn't sucked out. Fish don't get sucked
into the
siphon. And fry? In a goldfish tank? Yum!

Not great reasons to go to a bare bottom. Point 6 to make vacuuming
easier maybe.

But this was about UGF, and with UGF you change many of the points above
in that there is circulation in the gravel and so it's not "anaerobic"...

Whew! I can see all these points, but I have a little tank of about 40
litres with four decent goldfish and two white cloud minnows in it.

I can't imagine 4 goldfish in 40 litres. I think you are pulling our leg
We have a very overcrowded (temporary) situation, but still have only 8 in
220 litres. They grow so fast, and even here we will need another tank or
pond soon...

There's gravel on the bottom and all the plants are plastic. It's away
from any direct sunlight and I allow algae on the end and back panels.

Algae is okay if you don't mind it. It eats nitrates and so forth.

I
have a very good external pump/filter hung on the outside of the tank,
and change around half the water three or four times a year. I dump
chlorinated water straight from the tap on the assumption that what's
already in the tank will dilute anything unpleasant for the fish.

The main risk there is that the chlorine in the water will kill some of the
good bacteria that convert the toxins in the tank. Best to leave the water
stand for 24 hours before adding to the tank, especially in a larger water
change.

Apart
from that all I do is feed them lightly once a day. This little tank has
run without a single hiccup for over two years now, and brought endless
enjoyment to me and the grandkids when they come to stay. In fact each
grandchild has his/her own fish they have named.

My sister kept goldfish in a small tank for a few years. But in a larger
tank they will actually grow and live longer. They are a large fish.

Now, my point in all this is simply this - people often remark on how
clean and fresh the tank looks, and how healthy and energetic the fish
are. I never check Ph or any other parametres - the only three
principles I use are - (a) watch the feed quantity,

Yes, well, goldfish will eat all day.

(b) understock the
tank,

well, 4 in 40 litres isn't under stocked tho. 1 in 200 litres might be. Most
people recommend 1 in 80 litres at least... These guys get over 30cm long
(more, depending on the type).

(c) have a good filter setup and keep it running sweetly.

A good filter is a big help with goldfish. They need twice as much as most
other fish.

So,
ahem, why the need for all these other things, or am I just plain lucky?
I am not seeking to be provocative, and I respect the obvious experience
and knowledge of others in this group, which is far greater than mine. I
just want to know if all this extra stuff is good for the fish.

I don't think you need a lot of 'other stuff'. With enough tank and basic
maintenance and a good filter, it all works fine.

amosf © Tim Fairchild wrote:
Peter in New Zealand wrote:

amosf © Tim Fairchild wrote:
wrote:

http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/c...re1.htm#GRAVEL
GRAVEL
Gravel is not recommended for keeping goldfish.
Interesting opinion, but...

1. Gravel is the leading cause of sudden death when gravel gets stuck in
their throat.
Possible perhaps, but never seen it actually happen.

2. Food drifts down into gravel and rots. Goldfish will sift and work
thru the
gravel looking for food. Rotting food is toxic for goldfish.
I imagine rotting food is potentially bad for all fish, but then that's
why you clean the gravel. Mind you I notice fish tend not to eat 'rotting
food'. They tend to be a little selective.

3. Gravel creates "dead" spots where anaerobic bacteria thrive and
secrete toxic gases.
Toxic gasses? Ammonia perhaps. Of course that's why you clean gravel.

4. Organic compounds contribute to the waste in the tank, driving up
nitrate levels. High organic loads in gravel can easily equal the waste
output of an extra fish for two which drastically lowers the "carrying
capacity" of the tank (1 gf per 10 gallons).
Nitrate factory, sure. That's why you clean the gravel. Nitrates can be
great, but we know about plants and goldfish

5. Organic compounds are acidic and can lower the pH to the point that
it kills off the biobugs. The nitrite converting bacteria are the first
to die, which causes a
nitrous acid spike. This will cause a sudden crash that kills the
entire biofilter. Unlike cycling, where the keeper knows and is checking
for wastes and changing water, sudden crashes are not detected until the
fish are showing severe symptoms.
That's why you clean the gravel. And of course with correct kH the pH is
not going to crash on you... And we all check the parameters now and
then, right

6. It is more work to clean gravel and do water changes. Any gravel or
rocks on the bottom require a bell of some kinds to suck up debris that
gets caught under the items. In a bare bottom tank, the circulation of
the water in the tank means all the crud and wastes are sucked out by
the filter intake. There is no siphoning required.
If you want to save work maybe, but I like the look of gravel and it
gives you somewhere to stick plants (anubias with gf of course - as well
as some salad for them to snack on). But even in a bare bottom you have
to clean up wastes. The crap still sits all over the bottom anyway.

7. Fish can be sucked up into a siphon bell and be maimed or killed
every time the
gravel is cleaned. When there is no gravel to clean, a nylon sockie can
be put over the siphon and even fry wont get sucked out with the waste
water.
This is the silliest one. The whole idea of the bell siphon is to reduce
the suction so that the gravel isn't sucked out. Fish don't get sucked
into the
siphon. And fry? In a goldfish tank? Yum!

Not great reasons to go to a bare bottom. Point 6 to make vacuuming
easier maybe.

But this was about UGF, and with UGF you change many of the points above
in that there is circulation in the gravel and so it's not "anaerobic"...

Whew! I can see all these points, but I have a little tank of about 40
litres with four decent goldfish and two white cloud minnows in it.

I can't imagine 4 goldfish in 40 litres. I think you are pulling our leg
We have a very overcrowded (temporary) situation, but still have only 8 in
220 litres. They grow so fast, and even here we will need another tank or
pond soon...

There's gravel on the bottom and all the plants are plastic. It's away
from any direct sunlight and I allow algae on the end and back panels.

Algae is okay if you don't mind it. It eats nitrates and so forth.

I
have a very good external pump/filter hung on the outside of the tank,
and change around half the water three or four times a year. I dump
chlorinated water straight from the tap on the assumption that what's
already in the tank will dilute anything unpleasant for the fish.

The main risk there is that the chlorine in the water will kill some of the
good bacteria that convert the toxins in the tank. Best to leave the water
stand for 24 hours before adding to the tank, especially in a larger water
change.

Apart
from that all I do is feed them lightly once a day. This little tank has
run without a single hiccup for over two years now, and brought endless
enjoyment to me and the grandkids when they come to stay. In fact each
grandchild has his/her own fish they have named.

My sister kept goldfish in a small tank for a few years. But in a larger
tank they will actually grow and live longer. They are a large fish.

Now, my point in all this is simply this - people often remark on how
clean and fresh the tank looks, and how healthy and energetic the fish
are. I never check Ph or any other parametres - the only three
principles I use are - (a) watch the feed quantity,

Yes, well, goldfish will eat all day.

(b) understock the
tank,

well, 4 in 40 litres isn't under stocked tho. 1 in 200 litres might be. Most
people recommend 1 in 80 litres at least... These guys get over 30cm long
(more, depending on the type).

(c) have a good filter setup and keep it running sweetly.

A good filter is a big help with goldfish. They need twice as much as most
other fish.

So,
ahem, why the need for all these other things, or am I just plain lucky?
I am not seeking to be provocative, and I respect the obvious experience
and knowledge of others in this group, which is far greater than mine. I
just want to know if all this extra stuff is good for the fish.

I don't think you need a lot of 'other stuff'. With enough tank and basic
maintenance and a good filter, it all works fine.


Ummm, my tank measures 50 X 26 X 30 cm high. Have I done something
really silly with the calculation? The residents all look healthy, happy
and active. If it was allowed in a news group I could attach a quick pic
of it to show you. Maybe my filtration system is robust enough to
increase the apparent carrying capacity of the tank enough for them. I
just never worry about it. If the fish are not entirely happy I know
what to look for, and would do something about it, but they're perky,
eating well, clean of any sign of trouble, and the water is clear and
clean. I know goldfish are an inherently "dirty" species, and I would
not want to leave the water circulating and filtering system turned off
for a day or two, but as it stands now, they have remained happy and
healthy for about two years.
--
Peter in New Zealand. (Pull the plug out to reply.)
Collector of old cameras, tropical fish fancier, good coffee nutter, and
compulsive computer fiddler.

"Peter in New Zealand" wrote in message
...

Whew! I can see all these points, but I have a little tank of about 40
litres with four decent goldfish and two white cloud minnows in it.

I'm not familiar with the metric system. ;-)
The recommended amount of filtered water per goldfish is 10 gallons. GF are
large fish and to starve them into a stunted condition (which some people
unknowingly do) to keep them in small tanks (less than 10g per GF) is
considered cruel by many people. They're big eaters and grow quickly when
well fed and well housed and cared for.

I
have a very good external pump/filter hung on the outside of the tank, and
change around half the water three or four times a year. I dump
chlorinated water straight from the tap on the assumption that what's
already in the tank will dilute anything unpleasant for the fish.

Most of us do partial changes at least every few weeks to remove the
dissolved solids (pollutants the filter doesn't get).


Apart
from that all I do is feed them lightly once a day.

This in my opinion is cruel. Would you feed a puppy or growing child
"lightly?" GF are not once a day eaters. They're browsers or grazers who
nibble all day long in nature - and grow rapidly if healthy.


This little tank has
run without a single hiccup for over two years now, and brought endless
enjoyment to me and the grandkids when they come to stay. In fact each
grandchild has his/her own fish they have named.

Now, my point in all this is simply this - people often remark on how
clean and fresh the tank looks, and how healthy and energetic the fish
are. I never check Ph or any other parametres - the only three principles
I use are - (a) watch the feed quantity,

Which seems to mean you are underfeeding them if they're still small. A
normal 2 year old GF is a good 6" long or longer.

b) understock the
tank, (c)

Each GF needs 10 gallons of water for maximum health and growth, MORE when
an adult at 8 to 12" long.

have a good filter setup and keep it running sweetly. So,
ahem, why the need for all these other things, or am I just plain lucky?

Luck and starving fish perhaps? One light meal a day? :-(

I am not seeking to be provocative, and I respect the obvious experience
and knowledge of others in this group, which is far greater than mine. I
just want to know if all this extra stuff is good for the fish.

All they really need is enough space, clean water, plenty of decent food and
a running filter.


--
ZB....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*

Zëbulon wrote:


"Peter in New Zealand" wrote in message
...

Whew! I can see all these points, but I have a little tank of about 40
litres with four decent goldfish and two white cloud minnows in it.

I'm not familiar with the metric system. ;-)

Well, 40l would be about 10 gallons...

The recommended amount of filtered water per goldfish is 10 gallons. GF
are large fish and to starve them into a stunted condition (which some
people unknowingly do) to keep them in small tanks (less than 10g per GF)
is
considered cruel by many people. They're big eaters and grow quickly when
well fed and well housed and cared for.

I have some in a somewhat overcrowded situation with about 40l per goldfish,
but that will change as they grow.

tim