underwater gravel

Many people on various goldfish lists have had this happen. come home to find a fish
dead that was perfectly healthy when they left the house. most people dont do a
necropsy on their fish to find out what happened. Fortunately, many have long
handled tweezers to get the rock out of the GF mouth since this most often happens at
feeding time when GF are aggressively sucking up off the bottom of the tank.

Even a good cleaning does not really get rid of all the mulm and crap that
accumulates in and under gravel and ornaments. many people who thought there were
doing a smashing good job of cleaning their tanks were shocked when they pulled the
underground filter plates out and saw what stirred up into the water. the other
indication is a persistent high nitrates, indicative of rotting stuff under plates
where water channelizes. Another drawback is after a while people get tired of the
water changes and cleaning and it gets increasingly cursory. as this happens,
nitrate and organic acids rise and the fish start suffering. the pH drops and kills
off the good bacteria and then there is a toxic stew.

Actually the toxic gases are produced anaerobically .. hydrogen sulfide and other
partial breakdown products, typically much like those in crude oil. they stink
badly, and when undergravel plates are pulled the smell of sulfur is very strong.

nitrates are not removed by cleaning the gravel, but by replacing the water.
anything in the tank that drives up nitrates will mean more water changes.

looks are an obvious consideration. but with big flashy goldfish I prefer the zen
appearance, and the bottom does grow its own algae covering, which I leave alone like
I do the back and sides of the tank. this provides a living filtration system that
can be a life saver if the electricity goes out. and no, with proper filtration and
proper placing of air stones there is no residual poop on the bottom of the tank.
actually, any kind of string of poop is a sign that the fish are either being
overfed at one time, or the food is wrong. in ponds, GF normally graze all day long
and their poops fall apart after exiting the end. plants can be attached in other
ways. http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/care/plants.html
tied to suction cups, planted, allowed to grow free

a very good suction is required to get the detritus out of the gravel.
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/c...g%20techniques
GF are not just nosy and curious, they have an excellent sense of smell and will be
drawn to where the "action" is by the smell of leftover food. they can also be quite
fast in moving to where the bell is. I have never suctioned up a single tail nor a
koi (my mistake having koi in a tank, but I was a raw newbie). however, fancy GF are
slow compared to single tails and any with a big head or hood will suction up even
faster.

circulation in a ugf gets quickly channelized. the water flows to those areas with
least resistance. debris piles up where the water isnt flowing as strong and soon
the water is only flowing in the channels.

most people who follow your techniques would have dead fish in a short period of
time. that is the reason that Jo Ann Burke (the Goldfish Guru) came up with the
essentials list for newbies.... to maximize success.
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/c...htm#essentials
I set up a 20 gallon tank, 3 GF, for my mother. It too did fine with almost no care
at all and then all the fish died, the tank had gone toxic despite the plants, the
gravel, the string algae all over the inside. and the fish frankly hadnt grown at
all, a sign of severe stunting due to chronic toxic water conditions. only then did
I find out she was not changing water.
Ingrid



Peter in New Zealand wrote:
amosf © Tim Fairchild wrote:
wrote:

http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/c...re1.htm#GRAVEL
GRAVEL
Gravel is not recommended for keeping goldfish.

Interesting opinion, but...

1. Gravel is the leading cause of sudden death when gravel gets stuck in
their throat.

Possible perhaps, but never seen it actually happen.

2. Food drifts down into gravel and rots. Goldfish will sift and work
thru the
gravel looking for food. Rotting food is toxic for goldfish.

I imagine rotting food is potentially bad for all fish, but then that's why
you clean the gravel. Mind you I notice fish tend not to eat 'rotting
food'. They tend to be a little selective.

3. Gravel creates "dead" spots where anaerobic bacteria thrive and secrete
toxic gases.

Toxic gasses? Ammonia perhaps. Of course that's why you clean gravel.

4. Organic compounds contribute to the waste in the tank, driving up
nitrate levels. High organic loads in gravel can easily equal the waste
output of an extra fish for two which drastically lowers the "carrying
capacity" of the tank (1 gf per 10 gallons).

Nitrate factory, sure. That's why you clean the gravel. Nitrates can be
great, but we know about plants and goldfish

5. Organic compounds are acidic and can lower the pH to the point that it
kills off the biobugs. The nitrite converting bacteria are the first to
die, which causes a
nitrous acid spike. This will cause a sudden crash that kills the entire
biofilter. Unlike cycling, where the keeper knows and is checking for
wastes and changing water, sudden crashes are not detected until the fish
are showing severe symptoms.

That's why you clean the gravel. And of course with correct kH the pH is not
going to crash on you... And we all check the parameters now and then,
right

6. It is more work to clean gravel and do water changes. Any gravel or
rocks on the bottom require a bell of some kinds to suck up debris that
gets caught under the items. In a bare bottom tank, the circulation of the
water in the tank means all the crud and wastes are sucked out by the
filter intake. There is no siphoning required.

If you want to save work maybe, but I like the look of gravel and it gives
you somewhere to stick plants (anubias with gf of course - as well as some
salad for them to snack on). But even in a bare bottom you have to clean up
wastes. The crap still sits all over the bottom anyway.

7. Fish can be sucked up into a siphon bell and be maimed or killed every
time the
gravel is cleaned. When there is no gravel to clean, a nylon sockie can
be put over the siphon and even fry wont get sucked out with the waste
water.

This is the silliest one. The whole idea of the bell siphon is to reduce the
suction so that the gravel isn't sucked out. Fish don't get sucked into the
siphon. And fry? In a goldfish tank? Yum!

Not great reasons to go to a bare bottom. Point 6 to make vacuuming easier
maybe.

But this was about UGF, and with UGF you change many of the points above in
that there is circulation in the gravel and so it's not "anaerobic"...

Whew! I can see all these points, but I have a little tank of about 40
litres with four decent goldfish and two white cloud minnows in it.
There's gravel on the bottom and all the plants are plastic. It's away
from any direct sunlight and I allow algae on the end and back panels. I
have a very good external pump/filter hung on the outside of the tank,
and change around half the water three or four times a year. I dump
chlorinated water straight from the tap on the assumption that what's
already in the tank will dilute anything unpleasant for the fish. Apart
from that all I do is feed them lightly once a day. This little tank has
run without a single hiccup for over two years now, and brought endless
enjoyment to me and the grandkids when they come to stay. In fact each
grandchild has his/her own fish they have named.

Now, my point in all this is simply this - people often remark on how
clean and fresh the tank looks, and how healthy and energetic the fish
are. I never check Ph or any other parametres - the only three
principles I use are - (a) watch the feed quantity, (b) understock the
tank, (c) have a good filter setup and keep it running sweetly. So,
ahem, why the need for all these other things, or am I just plain lucky?
I am not seeking to be provocative, and I respect the obvious experience
and knowledge of others in this group, which is far greater than mine. I
just want to know if all this extra stuff is good for the fish.

Cheers,



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?...s=Group+lookup
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold website.
I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan

amosf © Tim Fairchild wrote:
wrote:

http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/c...re1.htm#GRAVEL
GRAVEL
Gravel is not recommended for keeping goldfish.

Interesting opinion, but...

1. Gravel is the leading cause of sudden death when gravel gets stuck in
their throat.

Possible perhaps, but never seen it actually happen.

2. Food drifts down into gravel and rots. Goldfish will sift and work
thru the
gravel looking for food. Rotting food is toxic for goldfish.

I imagine rotting food is potentially bad for all fish, but then that's why
you clean the gravel. Mind you I notice fish tend not to eat 'rotting
food'. They tend to be a little selective.

3. Gravel creates "dead" spots where anaerobic bacteria thrive and secrete
toxic gases.

Toxic gasses? Ammonia perhaps. Of course that's why you clean gravel.

4. Organic compounds contribute to the waste in the tank, driving up
nitrate levels. High organic loads in gravel can easily equal the waste
output of an extra fish for two which drastically lowers the "carrying
capacity" of the tank (1 gf per 10 gallons).

Nitrate factory, sure. That's why you clean the gravel. Nitrates can be
great, but we know about plants and goldfish

5. Organic compounds are acidic and can lower the pH to the point that it
kills off the biobugs. The nitrite converting bacteria are the first to
die, which causes a
nitrous acid spike. This will cause a sudden crash that kills the entire
biofilter. Unlike cycling, where the keeper knows and is checking for
wastes and changing water, sudden crashes are not detected until the fish
are showing severe symptoms.

That's why you clean the gravel. And of course with correct kH the pH is not
going to crash on you... And we all check the parameters now and then,
right

6. It is more work to clean gravel and do water changes. Any gravel or
rocks on the bottom require a bell of some kinds to suck up debris that
gets caught under the items. In a bare bottom tank, the circulation of the
water in the tank means all the crud and wastes are sucked out by the
filter intake. There is no siphoning required.

If you want to save work maybe, but I like the look of gravel and it gives
you somewhere to stick plants (anubias with gf of course - as well as some
salad for them to snack on). But even in a bare bottom you have to clean up
wastes. The crap still sits all over the bottom anyway.

7. Fish can be sucked up into a siphon bell and be maimed or killed every
time the
gravel is cleaned. When there is no gravel to clean, a nylon sockie can
be put over the siphon and even fry wont get sucked out with the waste
water.

This is the silliest one. The whole idea of the bell siphon is to reduce the
suction so that the gravel isn't sucked out. Fish don't get sucked into the
siphon. And fry? In a goldfish tank? Yum!

Not great reasons to go to a bare bottom. Point 6 to make vacuuming easier
maybe.

But this was about UGF, and with UGF you change many of the points above in
that there is circulation in the gravel and so it's not "anaerobic"...

All great points!! Especially the final one. I was typing my answer
while doing other computer work and answering calls (which took a
while), so I appolgize for any similar answer.

Carl

"amosf © Tim Fairchild" wrote in message
...
wrote:

http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/c...re1.htm#GRAVEL
GRAVEL
Gravel is not recommended for keeping goldfish.

Interesting opinion, but...

1. Gravel is the leading cause of sudden death when gravel gets stuck in
their throat.

Possible perhaps, but never seen it actually happen.

brevity snips
==================
I have gravel in my GF tanks and only once did I have to use tweezers to
remove one. I can't stand the "hospital" tank look of the graveless bottom.
It's too unnatural for my tastes, and I do have live plants in every tank.
Also there is nothing for the fish to do in "glass cages." They love
picking over the bottom for dropped bits of food. If food is rotting on the
bottom someone is over-feeding their fish. PH remains stable because I
keep the gravel vacuumed and do regular partial water changes.

But everyone has their own way of doing things.
--
ZB....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*

wrote:

1. Gravel is the leading cause of sudden death when gravel gets stuck in their
throat.

I have seen this happen, but can happen with any aquarium with gravel,
obviously this happens less with pea sized gravel. But with proper
feeding technique (soaking pellets before feeding for 5 minutes +) this
is very rare, and I have maintained hundred of goldfish aquariums over
the years in my maintenance business.

2. Food drifts down into gravel and rots. Goldfish will sift and work thru the
gravel looking for food. Rotting food is toxic for goldfish.

Again true, but this is true for all fish al again proper feeding
technique is important here as well

3. Gravel creates "dead" spots where anaerobic bacteria thrive and secrete toxic
gases.

This is much more common with sand, which is why sand is best near the
roots of plants, where the chance of hydrogen sulfide producing
bacteria is low. This is VERY rare with Nektonics UGF.

4. Organic compounds contribute to the waste in the tank, driving up nitrate levels.
High organic loads in gravel can easily equal the waste output of an
extra fish for
two which drastically lowers the "carrying capacity" of the tank (1 gf
per 10
gallons).

This is where plants can help or again proper cleanings. This is just
as common or more so with a poorly maintained canister filter (and
canister filters are excellent, they just cannot be ignored just
because of their large capacity)

5. Organic compounds are acidic and can lower the pH to the point that it kills off
the biobugs. The nitrite converting bacteria are the first to die,
which causes a
nitrous acid spike. This will cause a sudden crash that kills the
entire biofilter.
Unlike cycling, where the keeper knows and is checking for wastes and
changing water,
sudden crashes are not detected until the fish are showing severe
symptoms.

Nitric acid production is on going in all healthy well cycled
aquariums. Proper kH is what is important here, and not just the old
school method of baking soda, which does not add the calcium needed by
all fish (in fact all animals), and also does not add necessary
electrolytes. There are many excellent ways of doing this from Wonder
Shells to bags of aragonite in the filter.

6. It is more work to clean gravel and do water changes. Any gravel or rocks on the
bottom require a bell of some kinds to suck up debris that gets caught
under the
items. In a bare bottom tank, the circulation of the water in the tank
means all the
crud and wastes are sucked out by the filter intake. There is no
siphoning required.

This describes an excellent hospital aquarium, but not an aesthetically
pleasing display aquarium. Also gravel can and does perform aerobic
bacterial filtration; it provides a place for healthy plants to take
root (sand mixture is best here). And in sal****er, anaerobic activity
is useful for nitrate removal. And even in freshwater a thicker layer
of coarse gravel utilizing a "void space" called a plenum is often used
for Nitrate removal. These are not to be confused with under gravel
filters.

7. Fish can be sucked up into a siphon bell and be maimed or killed every time the
gravel is cleaned. When there is no gravel to clean, a nylon sockie
can be put over
the siphon and even fry wont get sucked out with the waste water.

Good point as to proper vacuuming procedure. With proper manipulation
of the vacuum and using your other hand to pinch the tubing when the
flow gets to strong, this should be a non occurrence. I cannot say it
has never happened to me, but in over 56,160 aquariums I estimate I
have cleaned over the last 27 years, it has maybe happened three times
(the math is based on 8 aquariums per day times 5 times 52 weeks time
27 years)

Carl
http://www.americanaquariumproducts....formation.html

"carlrs" wrote in message
ps.com...

Nitric acid production is on going in all healthy well cycled
aquariums. Proper kH is what is important here, and not just the old
school method of baking soda, which does not add the calcium needed by
all fish (in fact all animals), and also does not add necessary
electrolytes. There are many excellent ways of doing this from Wonder
Shells to bags of aragonite in the filter.


Can you explain this please? Are you saying that Wonder Shells are needed
in all aquariums? What are they?


Jen

Jen wrote:
"carlrs" wrote in message
ps.com...

Nitric acid production is on going in all healthy well cycled
aquariums. Proper kH is what is important here, and not just the old
school method of baking soda, which does not add the calcium needed by
all fish (in fact all animals), and also does not add necessary
electrolytes. There are many excellent ways of doing this from Wonder
Shells to bags of aragonite in the filter.


Can you explain this please? Are you saying that Wonder Shells are needed
in all aquariums? What are they?


Jen

No, but they or some other form of calcium, magnesium and electrolytes
are very important to a healthy aquarium. Proper electrolyte balance is
also important for proper Redox Potential (reduction), which recent
research shows is very important.
Even soft water fish such as discus need calcium.
What these blocks are a basically calcium with minor, and trace
elements. They are good buffer kH control, but only then if you do not
have an over abundance of decaying organics supplying nitric acid.
These Wonder Shells (this is just a trade name, the name tends to over
state them) are my preferred way, but many like to use Aragonite sand,
I have found the Wonder shells to dissolve at a rate needed based on
kH, where as aragonite tends to dissolve at a rate less affected by kH
and electrolyte needs.

Here are some facts about Calcium:
Calcium carbonate in your aquarium will keep a more stable Kh, while
magnesium is another important element that works with calcium. A
proper amount of Calcium and Magnesium in your aquarium will affect the
fish' health positively. Besides helping to keep a stable Kh,
magnesium and calcium have been shown to increase resistance to
degenerate diseases by lowering the acidity in the body. This will help
with prevention of ich, fungus, and general "wear and tear" in your
fish. Calcium also helps in healing and stress, and without proper
calcium levels healing may be difficult or impossible. The addition of
antibiotics (such as Tetracycline) will lower calcium absorption.
Another note about calcium; Calcium is very important to proper discus
health, yet calcium can adversely affect the pH of a discus aquarium,
which is generally kept at a pH below 6.5. I have successfully used
calcium (Wonder Shells or Calcium Polygluconate) in discus aquariums by
using a mix of RO (Reverse Osmosis) water and tap water (dilution will
vary depending on your tap and tank water parameters). I then add
electrolytes to the RO water and add peat to the filters. I have used
this method successfully with discus and added the needed calcium with
no pH climb.

Other needs for calcium:
· Calcium is a vital component in blood clotting systems and also
helps in wound healing.
· Calcium helps to control nerve transmission, and release of
neurotransmitters.
· Calcium is an essential component in the production of enzymes and
hormones that regulate digestion, energy, and fat metabolism.
· Calcium helps to transport ions (electrically charged particles)
across the membrane.
· Calcium is essential for muscle contraction.
· Calcium assists in maintaining all cells and connective tissues in
the body.

There is more information about Calcium, Magnesium, and kH he
http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumKH.html

Carl

it is best to be careful of "wonder shells" because there has been this idea of
making "calcium pucks" from plaster of paris and in acid water it can really jerk the
pH around ... lethally.

the absolute best way to stabilize calcium or "hardness" is with dolomitic limestone
(not dolomite) which also has magnesium in it (which oyster shells do not). it comes
powdered and the right stuff looks off white with bits of black flecking in it. even
limestone chunks are good (but not marble). powdered dolomitic limestone stays in
the bottom of the tank dissolved on demand. getting the right stuff is not always
easy, but a lot is not needed either. Ingrid

"Jen" wrote:


"carlrs" wrote in message
ups.com...

Nitric acid production is on going in all healthy well cycled
aquariums. Proper kH is what is important here, and not just the old
school method of baking soda, which does not add the calcium needed by
all fish (in fact all animals), and also does not add necessary
electrolytes. There are many excellent ways of doing this from Wonder
Shells to bags of aragonite in the filter.


Can you explain this please? Are you saying that Wonder Shells are needed
in all aquariums? What are they?


Jen




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?...s=Group+lookup
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold website.
I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan

wrote:
it is best to be careful of "wonder shells" because there has been this idea of
making "calcium pucks" from plaster of paris and in acid water it can really jerk the
pH around ... lethally.

the absolute best way to stabilize calcium or "hardness" is with dolomitic limestone
(not dolomite) which also has magnesium in it (which oyster shells do not). it comes
powdered and the right stuff looks off white with bits of black flecking in it. even
limestone chunks are good (but not marble). powdered dolomitic limestone stays in
the bottom of the tank dissolved on demand. getting the right stuff is not always
easy, but a lot is not needed either. Ingrid


Are you even familiar with this product?
It is not new, nor is it perfect.
Although dolomitic limestone is a good control for pH and somewhat for
kH, magnesium in small quantities is essential for proper osmotic
function, and even more so as a Redox reducer which new research shows
is very important for proper water chemistry.
I have used these Wonder Shels in literally thousands of aquariums I
have maintained without ever experiencing what you are talking about.
These products are admittedly poorly named, as they do not do wonders,
nor are they a cure all, but they are a usefull tool in good aquatic
husbandry.

As to water channeling in UGFs, you are absolutely correct, but this is
a problem in many poorly maintained filters, including wet drys. The
design of the Nektonics unit tends to somewhat alleviate this problem.
I am not however promoting this filter, as it is not even available any
more, but those who have been involved in the aquatics industry for any
amount of time are familiar with it (such as Netmax).

The site you posted is very good beginner information, but there is
newer research that can be added (such as the fact that Redox plays a
larger roll in aquatic health than pH for many fish, especially dirty
fish such as goldfish).

Anearobic activity is not hard to control in properly maintained
aquariums, and as I stated earlier, I have only accidentally suctioned
goldfish 3 times in over 56,000 cleanings, not bad odds (and those
accidents were years ago). The Nylon sock is however a good idea, but
others still can gravel vacuum properly without one, and honestly the
Lees is amuch better value than the Python.

"Jen" wrote in message
...
So what's the general consensus on using undergravel filters? Are they
good or bad?


Jen


absolute pain to clean.
now obselete with the air powered sponge filter so cheaply available
they can be handy for fish only marine tanks
and they hide well
but compared to a sponge filter under gravel is a pain.