I think I just killed all my fish

Water heated up inside the tank or under pressure (your water heater)
may cause gas emboli in fishes' gills with the symptoms you describe.
This is a bigger problem in the winter when the cold tap water has
more dissolved gas and with larger water changes. Water should be
heated outside of the tank and at atmospheric pressure with some
agitation to help de-gas the water. I have a powerhead pump the water
several feet above the container with a heater and fall back into it.
After several hours I add the replacement water to the tank over the
course of several more hours.

If there were a significant number of bubbles forming, particularly on
your heater or anything else glass, then you may have experienced this
problem.

Thank you all for your responses. They are really appreciated, as of now my
news are not so grim, I lost two fish. Last night after what happened I took
one of the Yellow Labs that was floating upside down by the filter intake
and put him in a small hospital tank. Today back from work the little fellow
seems to be recovered, he's swimming around the tank and seems a lot better.

I should have done the same with the other two but they were difficult to
catch and I didn't want to chase them around and stress them more. The one
is definitely gone, the second's gills are still moving but he looks bad, I
now have him in the hospital tank as well. I have read somewhere that
sometimes they come back even after they have stayed motionless for a while.
Not sure if there's any truth to that.

After reading your posts all day I realize that you all make some excellent
points.

I too was not certain as to whether or not it was ok to use the python to
fill the tank as opposed to a bucket of water that gets prepared first. But
I figured many people use their python to fill their tanks and I have in the
past also without an incident. I wasn't sure if adding the water treatment
was supposed to be before adding new water or during, I figured during would
be better.

The more I think of this the more Bitey's comment makes sense. At first I
thought it may have been pH shock to the fish that did it. But I was puzzled
indeed by the many little bubbles of air everywhere on the tank. On
decorations, glass, even on some fish. At that time I thought it was a good
thing thinking that I aerated the water stream enough when I was filling the
tank - I read somewhere that some of the chlorine escapes by having the
water come in under pressure and slash vigorously on the surface - in the
past I used to add water in a much slower rate.

I know think a pH shock should have come slower to the fish, but I'm
guessing here. I just checked the pH and it registers at typical levels, so
either it shifted in 24 hours time or it was ok to begin with. I was not
aware of "gas emboli" the way you described it one bit, but it almost sounds
like the 'bends' with divers. Is this a correct analogy? This is great
insight for all of us with tanks I think. I would have never thought of it.
The rest of the fish seem to be doing fine now in the tank. The pl*co did
not seemed phased at all but the cichlids felt it big time.

Will there be any future side effects from this ordeal in your estimation?
If I was to use a python to fill a tank is there a way to avoid this or
should I just skip to a water pump and a bucket?

Sorry for the long message but I feel that we all learned something here, I
certainly did and I thank you again all for your time.

Regards

Steve

"SA" wrote in message
...
Thank you all for your responses. They are really appreciated, as of now
my
news are not so grim, I lost two fish. Last night after what happened I
took
one of the Yellow Labs that was floating upside down by the filter intake
and put him in a small hospital tank. Today back from work the little
fellow
seems to be recovered, he's swimming around the tank and seems a lot
better.

I should have done the same with the other two but they were difficult to
catch and I didn't want to chase them around and stress them more. The one
is definitely gone, the second's gills are still moving but he looks bad,
I
now have him in the hospital tank as well. I have read somewhere that
sometimes they come back even after they have stayed motionless for a
while.
Not sure if there's any truth to that.

After reading your posts all day I realize that you all make some
excellent
points.

I too was not certain as to whether or not it was ok to use the python to
fill the tank as opposed to a bucket of water that gets prepared first.
But
I figured many people use their python to fill their tanks and I have in
the
past also without an incident. I wasn't sure if adding the water treatment
was supposed to be before adding new water or during, I figured during
would
be better.

The more I think of this the more Bitey's comment makes sense. At first I
thought it may have been pH shock to the fish that did it. But I was
puzzled
indeed by the many little bubbles of air everywhere on the tank. On
decorations, glass, even on some fish. At that time I thought it was a
good
thing thinking that I aerated the water stream enough when I was filling
the
tank - I read somewhere that some of the chlorine escapes by having the
water come in under pressure and slash vigorously on the surface - in the
past I used to add water in a much slower rate.

I know think a pH shock should have come slower to the fish, but I'm
guessing here. I just checked the pH and it registers at typical levels,
so
either it shifted in 24 hours time or it was ok to begin with. I was not
aware of "gas emboli" the way you described it one bit, but it almost
sounds
like the 'bends' with divers. Is this a correct analogy? This is great
insight for all of us with tanks I think. I would have never thought of
it.
The rest of the fish seem to be doing fine now in the tank. The pl*co did
not seemed phased at all but the cichlids felt it big time.

Will there be any future side effects from this ordeal in your estimation?
If I was to use a python to fill a tank is there a way to avoid this or
should I just skip to a water pump and a bucket?

Sorry for the long message but I feel that we all learned something here,
I
certainly did and I thank you again all for your time.

Regards

Steve



I have water stored in my basement that I keep heated and agitated with an
airstone and this water I use in a lot of my tanks. My 77g tank upstairs and
my 50 g hex tank are both planted tanks that I use the Python on to do 50%
weekly water changes. When I am finished my tanks are full of bubbles, the
glass is covered, the plants are covered, everything is covered. I do this
week after week after week and have never lost a fish. I live in Canada and
the water does have more gas content than in summer however I have never
experienced a problem. However like everything in this hobby, YMMV.

Rick

On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 20:21:03 -0600, "Rick"
wrote:

I have water stored in my basement that I keep heated and agitated with an
airstone and this water I use in a lot of my tanks. My 77g tank upstairs and
my 50 g hex tank are both planted tanks that I use the Python on to do 50%
weekly water changes. When I am finished my tanks are full of bubbles, the
glass is covered, the plants are covered, everything is covered. I do this
week after week after week and have never lost a fish. I live in Canada and
the water does have more gas content than in summer however I have never
experienced a problem. However like everything in this hobby, YMMV.

You heat the water up first so that would lessen the problem.

When I did water changes in the summer, I would get a lot of bubbles,
too, but no problems. I think bubbles are a indicator of dissolved
gasses but the incoming water temperature determines the severity of
the problem.

In the winter, fish would be seen hyperventilating and hanging out at
the surface. If you do a water change, watch your fishes' respiratory
rate afterwards or better yet, during.

It took me awhile to realize what the problem was (I finally did a
Google newsgroup search). Search for gas bubble disease or gas emboli.
Since then, I've been heating the water outside the tank and creating
a waterfall with a powerhead. Then when I add the water hours later,
gradually, there are no bubbles and no hyperventilating. Cichlids are
pretty resistant to this but even they have limits. You might not
reach them in the summer but a slightly bigger water change on a
slightly colder day could do it.

"Bitey" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 20:21:03 -0600, "Rick"
wrote:

I have water stored in my basement that I keep heated and agitated with
an
airstone and this water I use in a lot of my tanks. My 77g tank upstairs
and
my 50 g hex tank are both planted tanks that I use the Python on to do
50%
weekly water changes. When I am finished my tanks are full of bubbles,
the
glass is covered, the plants are covered, everything is covered. I do
this
week after week after week and have never lost a fish. I live in Canada
and
the water does have more gas content than in summer however I have never
experienced a problem. However like everything in this hobby, YMMV.

You heat the water up first so that would lessen the problem.

When I did water changes in the summer, I would get a lot of bubbles,
too, but no problems. I think bubbles are a indicator of dissolved
gasses but the incoming water temperature determines the severity of
the problem.

In the winter, fish would be seen hyperventilating and hanging out at
the surface. If you do a water change, watch your fishes' respiratory
rate afterwards or better yet, during.

It took me awhile to realize what the problem was (I finally did a
Google newsgroup search). Search for gas bubble disease or gas emboli.
Since then, I've been heating the water outside the tank and creating
a waterfall with a powerhead. Then when I add the water hours later,
gradually, there are no bubbles and no hyperventilating. Cichlids are
pretty resistant to this but even they have limits. You might not
reach them in the summer but a slightly bigger water change on a
slightly colder day could do it.


the stored water is only because I have a R/O system in my house and I can't
stand the amount of waste water it takes to create a gallon of r/o water
which I use in a lot of my Corydoras tanks. I run a drain line to the
basement from the R/O system and can keep 3 large plastic garbage bins full
all the time. So seeing as how it is sitting there anyway I have a 200 watt
heater in one bin and an airstone and I simply move them from bin to bin as
I empty one or the other. I don't use any preheated and agitated water in my
upstairs tanks. The Hex contains angel fish and the 77 planted is a
community tank with loaches, bala sharks, platty's, cardinals, neon's,
Molly's etc and like I say I add directly from the python to the tank. Never
had a problem, no fish appear stressed at all. I also have Otto's in that
tank and they are very susceptible to change in water conditons and they
appear fine. Just my experience and my lack of problem certainly is not an
indication that someone else may not have one.

Rick

Water should be heating tanks and a number of outside pressure in the atmosphere help to the air-water mixing. I have a powerhead water pump A few feet above the container, heater and down to it. After several hours, I added the water tank replacement of course, a few hours.

"SA" wrote in
:

[Snip]
I too was not certain as to whether or not it was ok to use the
python to fill the tank as opposed to a bucket of water that
gets prepared first. But I figured many people use their python
to fill their tanks and I have in the past also without an
incident. I wasn't sure if adding the water treatment was
supposed to be before adding new water or during, I figured
during would be better.

[snip]

Steve,

In my experience, after reaching a certain threshold concentration,
chloramine, a chlorine derivative common in many public water
supplies, is instantly toxic to fish. Something in your post
suggested to me that you might have added dechlorinator (most such
products also neutralize chloramine) several minutes after
completing your water change -- a water change that was more than
usual. If that had happened, then there was a chance that you had
poisoned your fish with chloramine. (Smaller water changes might
not be enough to reach the toxic threshold, so you may never have
noticed this before). I know this can happen because I did it once,
when I was young and ignorant, to a tankful of Tanganyikans.
However, if you were adding dechlorinator at the same time as adding
water, then I would not think chloramine would be the explanation.

Regards,
Meph

On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 04:48:58 GMT, Mephistopheles
wrote:

However, if you were adding dechlorinator at the same time as adding
water, then I would not think chloramine would be the explanation.

While we're on the subject of adding dechlorinator, would you add
enough to treat a full tank or only the water you are changing?

I've always added enough to treat the entire tank, even if it was a
30% water change. A buddy of mine asked me why I did that, and I
didn't have an answer - I -always- did it that way

Do you live in the San Francisco Bay Area?

Cities that get their water from Hetch Hetchy added chloramines starting Feb
2.

I lost a tank of fish the hard way on this one.

You gotta remove the chloramines BEFORE they go in the tank. I had the same
question.

"SA" wrote in message
...
I cannot believe I did this but I think I managed to kill an entire tank
of
cichlids tonight. I am really bombed out about it.

I have a 45 gallon tank with some juveniles thriving for the past 3
months.
Typically I changed the water once a month when I had some community fish
in
there and once the cichlids were really small. Today I decided to test for
nitrates and switch to a biweekly water change. I had changed 25% two
weeks
ago. The nitrates were kind high so I decided to a more aggressive water
change around 40% of the water, I used a python like I always do and
filled
the tank up with water close to temp as the tank. The thermometer did not
register a temp change and the heater stayed up after it was full for
maybe
3min I used a water treatment in the tank. immediately after this all my
fish went to shock, sitting at the bottom of the tank still gasping for
air.
Couldn't understand what went wrong initially I thought they were just
frightened because of the substrate vacuum etc.

Two hours later still gasping and one already dead... I'm afraid they will
be more!

I am so mad right now.

Any comments as to what might have gone wrong are very much appreciated.

And just yesterday I was bragging about their colors and behavior to my
wife, I screwed my self so bad.

TIA

Steve