Few odd Questions Any help appreciated (pond/water couorse building/sturgeon) (UK)

I too am very new to all of this. I read a very interesting newbie article
once which said "Figure out how many fish your pond can support - then start
with 1/10th that." Also read "Pond keeping is not a science it is an art".
Ponding is not a formula. There are just too many variables which can
frequently change making each pond it's own little learning experience. You
will make mistakes - that's a given. Start slowly and your mistakes wont
cost you nearly as much in time, money and satisfaction. The bigger the
cushion to start the less the bruise in learning. Get to know your pond,
your filter, your fish, your unthought of problems. Quarantine all new fish
and plants before adding new problems to your pond. Don't start with
feeders. These things and more will help to keep new problems from becoming
a string of disasters. I say this having not done most of these things, but
I sure would do it differently if I had a second chance. Things will be
just so much more controlled and happy for everybody and everything. I
suspect there are some 'fast track' people who could also add their
disasters - but they're no longer ponders. Yes I think the 1000+ rule is
probably overstated.
I have already seen several EXPERIENCED ponders who have broken it. But if
you are soliciting advice and INEXPERIENCED this is probably a very good
rule. Start slowly and someday you will probably figure out how to 'break
the rules' safely in your own pond with your specific variables, or figured
out why you shouldnt. Or if you're like many in this group you'll have a
bigger pond and altogether different issues.

BTW - I dont know a thing about sturgeon. But my guess is, if they are
anything like comets you are on the way to your first three mistakes.
Filter not cylced, they got bugs, etc.

Bill Brister
Austin, Texas

wrote in message ...
I have Koi..never have followed that rule... BUT Useing the rule
described below you are saying that you need 1000 gallons of water to
succesfully keep one KOI Healthy??? I disagree.... MIKE
snip

What I am saying is that you can keep a Koi alive in your kitchen sink with
the proper filtration. BUT, since none of have our ponds in a labratory with
carefuly monitoring filtering, it is good to give some buffer space to
prevent large swings in the water parameters. The 1000+100 rule is a good
rule of thumb for hosting a pond full of Koi, simply because it provides an
easy to remember number, and enough water to properly buffer spikes in water
chemistry. In addition, as Sam pointed out, 1000 gallons will often result
in a size and shape pond that gives the Koi room to move.

BV.

I would say that ponding is mostly science. as in we know what will kill koi and try
to avoid that. science tells us how to be very conservative when starting out.
what water parameters are needed for healthy fish.
how much water, depth etc. is needed for stable pond temperature and "buffer" for
when/if things go wrong. in the south the problem is heat, in the north it is ice.
aeration, filtration.. why it is needed, what it does.
quarantine and why that is important.
water and lots of it is the very most important component of keeping fish. if the
water can be kept pristine keeping fish is a snap (well unless there is a predator or
somebody dumps poison in or around the pond).
art is when people knowingly bend or break the rules and get away with it.
Ingrid


"Newbie Bill" wrote:
Also read "Pond keeping is not a science it is an art".
Ponding is not a formula. There are just too many variables which can
frequently change making each pond it's own little learning experience. You
will make mistakes - that's a given. Start slowly and your mistakes wont
cost you nearly as much in time, money and satisfaction. The bigger the
cushion to start the less the bruise in learning. Get to know your pond,
your filter, your fish, your unthought of problems. Quarantine all new fish
and plants before adding new problems to your pond. Don't start with
feeders. These things and more will help to keep new problems from becoming
a string of disasters. I say this having not done most of these things, but
I sure would do it differently if I had a second chance. Things will be
just so much more controlled and happy for everybody and everything. I
suspect there are some 'fast track' people who could also add their
disasters - but they're no longer ponders. Yes I think the 1000+ rule is
probably overstated.
I have already seen several EXPERIENCED ponders who have broken it. But if
you are soliciting advice and INEXPERIENCED this is probably a very good
rule. Start slowly and someday you will probably figure out how to 'break
the rules' safely in your own pond with your specific variables, or figured
out why you shouldnt. Or if you're like many in this group you'll have a
bigger pond and altogether different issues.

BTW - I dont know a thing about sturgeon. But my guess is, if they are
anything like comets you are on the way to your first three mistakes.
Filter not cylced, they got bugs, etc.

Bill Brister
Austin, Texas




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

Even though there isn't much natural about
our ponds - they are made with liner and filled with city water for the most
part - it is still a good idea to look to Mother Nature sometimes.

Mother Nature provides lots of water for relatively few fish, she lets the fish
find food on their own (no tasty koi kibble dropped from the sky), she does
water changes, she filters with plants, she doesn't freak out over algae,
she encourages predators and ignores the pond for the most part.
Every once in a while she kills off too many fish with a hard winter, sends a
flood to clean things out or fills in the pond with cattails and willows and
starts over someplace else (you can do that with a whole planet to play with).

Mother Nature doesn't run her water through UV (she has the sun at her beck and
call), she hates chemical treatments, she doesn't want to zap her creatures
with shock fences, thinks fish chow tastes nasty and would never think of dying
her ponds...

So Mother Nature has a few hints for us. Not that we'll pay that much
attention. It is too much fun to feed the fish and we love to fuss over our
pets but do keep her in mind everytime you get the urge to get too retentive
about the pond and open a beer, zip some wine or have your morning coffee by
the pond instead.


kathy :-)
A HREF="http://www.onceuponapond.com/"Once upon a pond/A

wrote in message
...
I would say that ponding is mostly science.
snip
I tend to agree. 1+1 often = 2 when it comes to ponding.

art is when people knowingly bend or break the rules and get away with it.
snip

Unfortunately this is as true as 1+1=2, especially for the porgs that I have
read here on rec.ponds. I think we ALL break the rules at some point, and
for the most part, many of us have gotten away with it.

BV.

Hi All - There is apparently some sub dynamic of this group that I am
totally unaware of. If someone would care to email me privately I would
appreciate it. I wrote a fairly lengthy (surprise, surprise) 'observation'
and have decided to delete it, because I really, really dont want to offend
anyone or act like I'm right you're wrong. So I will just make 2 quick
comments about this thread. 1) I do believe there is quite an art to
balancing the scientific generalities and facts into your specific pond
parameters. 2) I have rarely seen an instance where a desired result is as
simple as 1+1=2. It is most usually 4 or 5 variables, hoping you weighted
them correctly, hoping you included the correct variables and the closer to
2 the better, but they rarely add up to exactly 2.
Perhaps I should not be commenting at all but I just saw something in
this thread that I dont get. Maybe its something as simple as you vets not
being allowed to say "You pond newbies are just too stupid at first so we
are going to start you off really slowly". I resemble that remark.
Have Fun!
Bill Brister - Austin, Texas
"Benign Vanilla" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...
I would say that ponding is mostly science.
snip
I tend to agree. 1+1 often = 2 when it comes to ponding.

art is when people knowingly bend or break the rules and get away with
it.
snip

Unfortunately this is as true as 1+1=2, especially for the porgs that I
have
read here on rec.ponds. I think we ALL break the rules at some point, and
for the most part, many of us have gotten away with it.

BV.

"Newbie Bill" wrote in message
...
Hi All - There is apparently some sub dynamic of this group that I am
totally unaware of.

Yeah, we're pretty close knit. rec.ponds is one of the few usenet groups
that is not plaqued with BS. Although, we have our moments.

If someone would care to email me privately I would
appreciate it. I wrote a fairly lengthy (surprise, surprise)
'observation'
and have decided to delete it, because I really, really dont want to
offend
anyone or act like I'm right you're wrong.

Where's the fun in that.

So I will just make 2 quick
comments about this thread. 1) I do believe there is quite an art to
balancing the scientific generalities and facts into your specific pond
parameters. 2) I have rarely seen an instance where a desired result is
as
simple as 1+1=2. It is most usually 4 or 5 variables, hoping you weighted
them correctly, hoping you included the correct variables and the closer
to
2 the better, but they rarely add up to exactly 2.

Which was my point. Sometimes 1+1=2 when you follow the rules. But we all
break them and usually end up getting 2, but not necissarily by adding 1 and
1.

Perhaps I should not be commenting at all but I just saw something in
this thread that I dont get. Maybe its something as simple as you vets
not
being allowed to say "You pond newbies are just too stupid at first so we
are going to start you off really slowly". I resemble that remark.
snip

Ponding is not an exact science, as evidenced by the fact that there are no
two ponds alike. No two sets of conditions. On rec.ponds, for the most part,
we offer anecdotal solutions to ponders problems. We are typically careful
not hand down knowledge as gospel, as we know that what works for 1 may not
work for another.

BV.

"Newbie Bill" wrote in message
...
Hi All - There is apparently some sub dynamic of this group that I am
totally unaware of. If someone would care to email me privately I would
appreciate it. I wrote a fairly lengthy (surprise, surprise)
'observation'
and have decided to delete it, because I really, really dont want to
offend
anyone or act like I'm right you're wrong.

I think you are reading far more into things then there really are. This is
just a big group of helpful people who enjoy making ponds, and sharing their
experiences, tips, n tricks.

No political agendas, no subterfuge, just an occasional ad type post from
some of the online pond supply places, which are pretty useful, actually.

I haven't been a regular here for more then a year though, and that's been
off an on, (we moved), so maybe there's a "secret circle" club I forgot to
join..


--
Gareee©
Homepage:
http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine.../mainframe.htm
Custom Figures, Wallpapers and more!

A lot of answers, and experience, depends on the pond.

I have a messy, wildlife type pond. My main goal is to see how many critters I
can attract and have been known to be thrilled to pieces over carnivorous
bladderwort and mayfly larvae.

Some folks have koi ponds. They actually know the names of the various types of
koi and can pronounce them. Koi have been called living jewels and they live up
to their names. Keeping koi is very exacting and watching your water parameters
is so important to keep them healthy and thriving.

Others are more plant oriented. They know the names of their lilies (unlike moi
who knows pink, white and yellow ;-) And they can actually grow
lotus (sigh, another goal I have yet to achieve).
And they can tell you the latin names of all the other pond plants. Keeping
plants healthy and thriving is a different operation too.

Some ponders combine all three. That's a juggling act! And combining all three
is again another specific set of skills.

Some of us like birds in our ponds,
others net the birds out. Some of us wish for
frogs, others buy earplugs. Some of us think snails are neat in the pond,
others prefer them with garlic and butter. Some of us drink beer by the pond,
others are coffee addicts
(raising hand).

We try to stay away from politics... and we usually succeed.
We sure would like you to hang out with us.
Besides we haven't explained PORG to you yet...


kathy :-)
A HREF="http://www.onceuponapond.com/"Once upon a pond/A

Hi, Everyone has there own opinions and "methods" when it comes to
anything,including ornamental pond husbandry. First thing before I even
started a pond project I already had many years of keeping ornamental fish
in aquariums. I was way ahead of the "game"...then I did research for about
2 years before I even attempted starting my pond project. Other than the
basics of digging...liner(rubber roofing) and filter construction I have
found that my successes has been easy and that pond keeping isn't a big
deal. The pond/ponds I have are pretty much take care of themselves as long
as I do water changes,don't overfeed, don't crowd the fish etc. Everyone is
here to help the "newbie". They just have to glean the info and use what
they may think will work for them ,then tune them to their own ponding
situations. Thanks Mike
"Newbie Bill" wrote in message
...
Hi All - There is apparently some sub dynamic of this group that I am
totally unaware of.