Am I Getting Hosed?

I havent' read all the posts yet, but just wanted to say that I just bought
the modern series cherry cabinet, canopy and a 125 gallon tank to replace an
old setup when I moved, this included the corners strips - and the tank was
pre/drilled in the corners and included the overflow kits -- Total cost
$1250. You don't need a glass top...

Okay, I just glanced at the list. RUN FORREST RUN!


"Tom Burns" wrote in message
...
So here I am in Southern Ontario, trying to set up a reef aquarium as a
total newbie. I go into a store that is huge and seems to have tons and
tons of great stuff.

I talk to a guy who, in the end, is going to fax me a quote for all the
stuff we discussed. The info he gave me seemed good (like how over the
long haul a calcium reactor will give me better results and cost less
than going about it differently), etc. etc. Then, he never faxes me the
quote. I call a week later, promisses to send it next day. Nothing. A
week later same thing- call-nothing. So I go into the store this past
Sunday and he's not there, but a couple a people who seem to give a ****
start scurrying around and find his paperwork. Just a pile of notes and
the "quote" which is nothing more than a cash register tape with the
stuff on it, as if he was ringing in a sale. BUT -- I don't see any
credits for stuff he said I would get a credit for because, for
instance, the canopy and lights on the tank I would not be getting
because there would be another lighting setup instead. PLUS-I haven't
got a clue what half the stuff is for. He was supposed to give me a
quote that detailed each major piece and what is was for I (if not
obvious like " 90 Gallon Aquarium" or "Aquarium Stand".

Below is a list from the tape they gave me to take. All comments or
insights into what the hell he's trying to sell me would be greatly
appreciated.

BTW-I guess I caused a stir when I was there last because first thing
Monday morning he calls me at home and says, "I hear you came in
yesterday - do you have some questions?" I said - thanks but I'm okay.

Heres the tale of the tape:

AG Modern cherry canopy
ag. flo. starip 48" black
ag glass top
ag 90 gal w/overflow
ag cherry stand
ag modern cherry overflow
$1499.00
CL HALIDE 48" 2 X 110 HOOD
$1249.99
SS MULTI REER #1L WITH LID
$349.00
BIOBALLS PER GALLON
10 X $9.99=$99.00
HI TECH
$150.00
BIO RED SEA BERLIN SKIMMER
$299.00
RIO 2500 HP WATER PUMP
$99.99
CL 48 ACTINIC 110WT VHO
2 FOR $89.98
RAINBOW 25 WATT OV1
$289.00
LG 3-MDQX-SC MAGPUMP 1000
$349.99
22250 KNOP CALCIUM REACTOR MDL C
$649.99
RIO 800 PUMP/POWERHEAD
$36.99
CO2 BOTTLE 5LBS
$149.99
AM SOLENOID VALVE
$129.00
AM CO2 REGULATOR
$179.99
PINPOINT PH MONITOR
$189.99
RED SEA WAVEMAKER PRO
$249.99
AQUACLEAR POWERHEAD #402
$116
PINPOINT SALINITY MONITOR
$279.99
IO VISITHERM HEATER 250 WATT
$39.99
RAINBOW BIG DIGITAL TEMP
$59.99
CL GROUND PROBE TITANIUM ESU
$39.99
ARGONITE REEF SAND, IO SEA SALT, CL DEEP SIX HYDROMETER, SEACHE PRIME AP
SAL****ER TEST KIT
$ 119.99/99.99/19.99/21.99/29.99

GRAND TOTAL $6848.10 PLUS TAXES FOR A TOTAL OF $7875.32


?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????????????

Southern Ontario here as well (London)
Dont get burned dbl check prices then check them again.
Thats a lot of $ to jump right in. Take things slow. A few retail
outlets will try to sell you un-needed equiptment just to raise the
final sale.
I have a used 40 complete setup for $300. Canadian. cycled and ready
for livestock.

On Mon, 29 Sep 2003 23:40:54 -0400, Tom Burns
wrote:

So here I am in Southern Ontario, trying to set up a reef aquarium as a
total newbie. I go into a store that is huge and seems to have tons and
tons of great stuff.

I talk to a guy who, in the end, is going to fax me a quote for all the
stuff we discussed. The info he gave me seemed good (like how over the
long haul a calcium reactor will give me better results and cost less
than going about it differently), etc. etc. Then, he never faxes me the
quote. I call a week later, promisses to send it next day. Nothing. A
week later same thing- call-nothing. So I go into the store this past
Sunday and he's not there, but a couple a people who seem to give a ****
start scurrying around and find his paperwork. Just a pile of notes and
the "quote" which is nothing more than a cash register tape with the
stuff on it, as if he was ringing in a sale. BUT -- I don't see any
credits for stuff he said I would get a credit for because, for
instance, the canopy and lights on the tank I would not be getting
because there would be another lighting setup instead. PLUS-I haven't
got a clue what half the stuff is for. He was supposed to give me a
quote that detailed each major piece and what is was for I (if not
obvious like " 90 Gallon Aquarium" or "Aquarium Stand".

Below is a list from the tape they gave me to take. All comments or
insights into what the hell he's trying to sell me would be greatly
appreciated.

BTW-I guess I caused a stir when I was there last because first thing
Monday morning he calls me at home and says, "I hear you came in
yesterday - do you have some questions?" I said - thanks but I'm okay.

Heres the tale of the tape:

AG Modern cherry canopy
ag. flo. starip 48" black
ag glass top
ag 90 gal w/overflow
ag cherry stand
ag modern cherry overflow
$1499.00
CL HALIDE 48" 2 X 110 HOOD
$1249.99
SS MULTI REER #1L WITH LID
$349.00
BIOBALLS PER GALLON
10 X $9.99=$99.00
HI TECH
$150.00
BIO RED SEA BERLIN SKIMMER
$299.00
RIO 2500 HP WATER PUMP
$99.99
CL 48 ACTINIC 110WT VHO
2 FOR $89.98
RAINBOW 25 WATT OV1
$289.00
LG 3-MDQX-SC MAGPUMP 1000
$349.99
22250 KNOP CALCIUM REACTOR MDL C
$649.99
RIO 800 PUMP/POWERHEAD
$36.99
CO2 BOTTLE 5LBS
$149.99
AM SOLENOID VALVE
$129.00
AM CO2 REGULATOR
$179.99
PINPOINT PH MONITOR
$189.99
RED SEA WAVEMAKER PRO
$249.99
AQUACLEAR POWERHEAD #402
$116
PINPOINT SALINITY MONITOR
$279.99
IO VISITHERM HEATER 250 WATT
$39.99
RAINBOW BIG DIGITAL TEMP
$59.99
CL GROUND PROBE TITANIUM ESU
$39.99
ARGONITE REEF SAND, IO SEA SALT, CL DEEP SIX HYDROMETER, SEACHE PRIME AP
SAL****ER TEST KIT
$ 119.99/99.99/19.99/21.99/29.99

GRAND TOTAL $6848.10 PLUS TAXES FOR A TOTAL OF $7875.32


????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????

So here I am in Southern Ontario, trying to set up a reef aquarium as a
total newbie.

First question first ... do you have any idea of what kind of
corals/livestock you wish to keep? Unless you have already determined that,
all of these talk about which equipment to purchase is nonsense.

jc

I'm aware that certain corals and livestock are more difficult to
maintain than others, or require slightly different environmental
parameters, but isn't it pretty much the same equipment/setup? For
example, I know that specific lighting is critical to some corals, but
they will all need lighting, calcium, proper salinity, etc. etc. to thrive.



Jimmy Chen wrote:
So here I am in Southern Ontario, trying to set up a reef aquarium as a
total newbie.


First question first ... do you have any idea of what kind of
corals/livestock you wish to keep? Unless you have already determined that,
all of these talk about which equipment to purchase is nonsense.

jc

"Stan Peterson" wrote in message
I'm aware that certain corals and livestock are more difficult to
maintain than others, or require slightly different environmental
parameters, but isn't it pretty much the same equipment/setup? For
example, I know that specific lighting is critical to some corals, but
they will all need lighting, calcium, proper salinity, etc. etc. to
thrive.

Well, if you're only going to be keeping mushrooms and polyps, not a lot of
current or light is required. But if you plan on getting into SPS corals or
clams, make sure you have plenty of light and current.

[snip]
"Stan Peterson" wrote in message
...
I'm aware that certain corals and livestock are more difficult to
maintain than others, or require slightly different environmental
parameters, but isn't it pretty much the same equipment/setup? For
example, I know that specific lighting is critical to some corals, but
they will all need lighting, calcium, proper salinity, etc. etc. to
thrive.

[/snip]

Yes, it all basically the same but "HOW MUCH" is the key. Some coral or
anemone require alot of light but other do not. So do you buy the best
lighting setup? You are basically hosting those critter that you want in
your tank. Find out what you want first then focus on those equipement.

CapFusion,...

I'm aware that certain corals and livestock are more difficult to
maintain than others, or require slightly different environmental
parameters, but isn't it pretty much the same equipment/setup?

Nope. Major differences in term of the kind of livestock and how well they
will do in different setups.

If you wish to keep softies, then I would agree with the other posters and
tell you to ditch the Ca reactor and just go with two part solutions, since
Ca level isnt a critical factor. In addition, lighting may not be as
critical as many are more low light demanding, even tho some still rather
perfer strong lights, nor will be your water quality. If you wish to keep
hard corals, such as LPS, or even harder, SPS, then I would say forget other
posters' advices and Ca reactor is a must, as your livestock will require
major Ca input on an on-going basis that no two-part solutions can even keep
up (cheaply). In addition, such a setup will demand strong lighting,
ultra-low organics, aka - kick ass skimmer, and top quality water, aka RO/DI
filter.

So as you can see from the examples above, this is no longer about a tank
with some equipment and add corals. Or to look at it from another POV, a
mistake made here can end up costing you thousands more in equipment
replacement.

jc

Tom

You do not need everything in the begining. First off , until your tank
is setup, cycled and more mature you don't need all the bells and
whistles. I would start with the desired tank, lights, circulation
pumps, good quality skimmer(spend some money here it will pay dividends
for a long time to come) , heaters,DSB, good quality LR, a set of test
kits and good quality salt. I would pass on the deep six hydrometer.
They are not very accurate. Buy a good quality hydrometrer, they are
more accurate.Take your time and add things one at a time as you need
them. You do not need the rest in the begining if ever. Many of the
toys are only needed when you have a more complicated setup with more
demanding or delicate pets. You may soon want a R/O / DI water filter.
It gets to be a pain running to a water store to buy good quality water
all the time. You will need lots of water in this hobby. Good water
makes a big difference
You especially don't need a calc reactor yet. Second off find a new
store. Whoever you are talking about and I have a good guess ( don't
stick your hand in the shark tank) is obvously only interested in making
a sale. There are lots of good sites to get info from on the net.
If you are near Oakville you can try the Oakville reef gallery on Kerr
St. Ask for Tom or Flavio.
I also have had good luck with Big Als in Stoney Creek for fish and dry
goods though most of the staff does not know much about reefs. Larry is
the guy to talk to. Most staff at Big Als in Mississauga have not been
very helpful. There is pretty good store next door called Dragon
Aquarium in the chinese plaza. They often have nice coral but are
generally not the best at giving advice.
As others have pointed out shop on the net before you shop in a store.
There is lots of variation in prices out there.

Good luck and welcome to the hobby

Todd

TW wrote:
Tom

You do not need everything in the begining. First off , until your tank
is setup, cycled and more mature you don't need all the bells and
whistles. I would start with the desired tank, lights, circulation
pumps, good quality skimmer(spend some money here it will pay dividends
for a long time to come) , heaters,DSB, good quality LR, a set of test
kits and good quality salt. I would pass on the deep six hydrometer.
They are not very accurate. Buy a good quality hydrometrer, they are
more accurate.Take your time and add things one at a time as you need
them. You do not need the rest in the begining if ever. Many of the
toys are only needed when you have a more complicated setup with more
demanding or delicate pets. You may soon want a R/O / DI water filter.
It gets to be a pain running to a water store to buy good quality water
all the time. You will need lots of water in this hobby. Good water
makes a big difference
You especially don't need a calc reactor yet. Second off find a new
store. Whoever you are talking about and I have a good guess ( don't
stick your hand in the shark tank) is obvously only interested in making
a sale. There are lots of good sites to get info from on the net.
If you are near Oakville you can try the Oakville reef gallery on Kerr
St. Ask for Tom or Flavio.
I also have had good luck with Big Als in Stoney Creek for fish and dry
goods though most of the staff does not know much about reefs. Larry is
the guy to talk to. Most staff at Big Als in Mississauga have not been
very helpful. There is pretty good store next door called Dragon
Aquarium in the chinese plaza. They often have nice coral but are
generally not the best at giving advice.
As others have pointed out shop on the net before you shop in a store.
There is lots of variation in prices out there.

Good luck and welcome to the hobby

Todd




Thanks for the great tip. I'd already been in the Dragon store, but
found it exactly as you described.
I went into the Oakville store today and spent over an hour with Tom.
Great guy, good advice, nice place, PLUS- it's so close to me that I
could almost carry a fish in my hand from the store to my house! (-;

I'm still digesting all the information but I think I'm going to go with
a 90 or 120 gall tank, refugium/sump that will have all those plants and
little critters living in it, a halide/VHO lighting system, R/O filter
with auto top up and bulk filtered water reservoir, and a high quality
skimmer. No calcium reactor until the demand warrants it. I'm going to
get the tank going without anything live in it and see what my
temperature fluctuations are, then I'll get a heater or chiller
depending on what I need. I figure that since the indoor temperature of
my house is relatively stable, I should only need one or the other.

Does this sound like a good starting point?

Thanks again to all who have helped me out so far.

Cheers

"Tom Burns" wrote in message
I'm still digesting all the information but I think I'm going to go with
a 90 or 120 gall tank, refugium/sump that will have all those plants and
little critters living in it, a halide/VHO lighting system, R/O filter
with auto top up and bulk filtered water reservoir, and a high quality
skimmer. No calcium reactor until the demand warrants it. I'm going to
get the tank going without anything live in it and see what my
temperature fluctuations are, then I'll get a heater or chiller
depending on what I need. I figure that since the indoor temperature of
my house is relatively stable, I should only need one or the other.

Does this sound like a good starting point?

Yes, much better than before. What kind of plants are you talking about? I
recommend that you have about 1-1.5 pounds per gallon of live rock and a
4-6" sand bed. Somebody has probably already told you that, but I'll say it
again. That's the only filtration you'll need. You say that you are going
to hold off on the heater for now. I still don't have a heater and found
that my tank does just fine. But remember, even though your house temp
doesn't fluctuate much, the lights will heat up your tank a great deal.
You'll have to figure out the difference between your tank water with and
without the lights on.