Aquarists vs Marine Biologists

I'm a new aquarist. I have a fish only tank. The reason I don't have
anemone and coral is that I don't wish to spend all of my money on
lighting and other such things(my choice). So, please J R-S, tell me,
what are my alternatives? Where can I go for these alternatives? How
much am I looking to spend? It's irresponsible not to tell me...so,
tell me. Give me a choice.

I believe that is the sentiment of the group. Not that you have
ingenuity and **** and vinegar. Not that you have a revolutionary new
system. The crux of the matter is you are recommending invisible things
to new aquarists...and sharing an irresponsible amount of your findings.
Telling people it's ok to go and spend almost nothing on lights and
filters and keep anything they want...it's simply not true today(maybe
with the JRS patented system it will be many years down the road), it's
been proved time and time again. Now if you have a *way* to do
that...fine. But until everybody else can do it(which will be many,
many years, 8 months is not scientifically significant), keep it quiet.
You are encouraging cruelty to animals. I don't doubt that you have a
tank full of critters that you have kept alive for 8 months...there was
a guy who came on here saying he left his tank in a divorce situation
and the wife didn't do water changes for 2 years and he lost like one
fish...he didn't have the JRS patented filtration system. The hobby
isn't simply to keep critters, it's to keep them healthy and as happy as
they can be in a glass box. So that many many years of joy can be had.
That's why we spend the money.

I have cats too. I *can* go 8 months without changing their litter box,
I'm confident they'd live...but is that responsible to make them fester
in their own mess? Just a thought.



J R-S wrote:
Listen Don!
I just came here with an alternative to expensive aquariums. My aquariums
by any means will be as good as any put together by a professional aquarist.
That is not my intention.
I developed a fish-with-little-coral tank that has been working for more
than 8 months without a water change.
Not telling that to new aquarists and instead saying that the only
alternative is an overrated ilumination system is irresponsible.
But, they are free people, they can make their own choice, can't they? so,
don't make the choice for them...

Relax Wayne!
You sound like a little upset kid!
I am not telling dude! remember, it is just my imagination, none of this is
real to you, don't worry, you keep it up with your systems that I will stay
in my own world.

jrs
"Wayne Sallee" wrote in message
...
Going 8 months without a water change is not impressive. It's no big deal.
It's not a great accomplishment. Going 8 months without a water change is
nothing. It's like a person saying that they had a goldfish live for a
wopping 2 years. Big deal. That's nothing.

But how about putting a picture of your inhabitants on your web site for
us to see.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



J R-S wrote on 3/25/2006 8:27 AM:
Listen Don!
I just came here with an alternative to expensive aquariums. My
aquariums by any means will be as good as any put together by a
professional aquarist. That is not my intention.
I developed a fish-with-little-coral tank that has been working for more
than 8 months without a water change.
Not telling that to new aquarists and instead saying that the only
alternative is an overrated ilumination system is irresponsible.
But, they are free people, they can make their own choice, can't they?
so, don't make the choice for them...

jrs
"Don Geddis" wrote in message
...
AverageSchmuck wrote on Fri, 24 Mar 2006:
Seriously why should it bother you that someone out their feels your
wasting your money.. Do you feel like your wasting your money?
His opinion of whether I'm wasting my money doesn't bother me at all.

The replies were all in service of innocent new reefkeepers. Novices
would
pose a typical question, and Jaime would laugh at them and tell them
they're
wasting their money. The more experienced reefkeepers on this group
wanted
to set the record straight for the benefit of the lurkers, who might
otherwise
believe that Jaime's claims were the collected wisdom of reef aquarists.

Now that portion below has me .. You say "not facts, claims, or
credentials" but wasnt it you that laughed at him over the fact he is
hmm what was the tone you used .. oh yeah in a manner that you
appeared to be better or above him cause you attained a comp sciene
PHD 10 years ago. Seems to me it more about credentials than you say.
You missed the sarcasm of my post. When a guy tells you over and over
again
"you're all ignorant -- believe me because I'm a Marine Biologist!",
then it's
kind of funny if he turns out to have far fewer qualifications than many
of
the other posters here (who, in turn, don't bother listing their
background).

I mentioned my PhD just for the irony. It doesn't matter to _me_, and
it
shouldn't matter to the group (for which it's basically irrelevant).
But for
a guy like Jaime, who claimed that we were all ignorant and he was the
only
scientist here, I find it funny that I'm at least qualified to tell who
a
good scientist is, and in the end it turns out that he isn't much of
one.

This is all on top of the fact that it shouldn't matter whether you're a
formal
scientist or not. What most people here are interested in is the
details of
what you've actually done with reef aquariums, and what you observed
while
doing it. How was your tank set up? What grew? How fast? What died?

I'm sure everyone's got their own pet theories about what matters. But
the
ocean is incredibly complex, and it's hard to be sure we have the full
story
about any particular species. So theories aren't generally as important
in
the hobby as actual data. What (exactly!) did you do, and what
happened?

Jaime's frustrating mostly because he makes enticing claims, that we
would all
love to be true, but then refuses to provide any public data backing it
up.
And then attempts to mock everyone else for wasting their money. It's
an
unfortunate arrogance of a not-quite-authority figure.

-- Don
__________________________________________________ _____________________________
Don Geddis http://reef.geddis.org/
Raspberry walks into a bar, bartender says "Sorry, we don't serve food
here."
-- On Fruitopia bottle, "raspberry psychic lemonade" flavor

You are right about your observation.
In this thread, THAT SHOULD'VE BEEN DEAD A LONG TIME AGO! we are argueing
about two different systems.
Is just that a while back, when all the confussion started and the mixed up
happened, your friend Wayne, argued that even anemonies needed that light
and I said now, then everyone started defending the expensive illumination
refering to corals and I said it is not needed for my systems.
Well, I am not "trying" to say that it was Wayne's fault (an aquarist) I am
saying that it is!

jrs
"Pszemol" wrote in message
...
"J R-S" wrote in message
...
Listen Don!
I just came here with an alternative to expensive aquariums. My
aquariums by any means will be as good as any put together by a
professional aquarist. That is not my intention.
I developed a fish-with-little-coral tank that has been working for more
than 8 months without a water change.
Not telling that to new aquarists and instead saying that the only
alternative is an overrated ilumination system is irresponsible.
But, they are free people, they can make their own choice, can't they?
so, don't make the choice for them...

Nobody here recomended overrated ilumination for a fish only tank...
What you call "overrated ilumination" is used on the SPS corals
(and you probably do not even know what SPS means, since it is
a hobbyist term, not scientific... right?). Only light-loving
corals from shallow waters require strong lights and metal halide
fixtures costing hundreds of dollars. Most other aquarium life,
including all "fish only tanks with little corals" can do fine with
standard fixtures available at Petco or even daylight lamps from Home
Depot.
As you can see, what you have done is not revolutionary at all...
Similarly to using sand and activated carbon for filtration.

Well Pat, I am not a babysitter, if you are in need of attention, go to your
dad or your mom.
If all you want is an illumination for your tank, well, I am using an All
Glass 36" TT on a 100 gals aquarium.
Now, go and sin no more! I hope I acted responsibly..
Oh! I forgot, the filtering system, well that I am not telling yet!

jrs
"Pat" wrote in message
...
I'm a new aquarist. I have a fish only tank. The reason I don't have
anemone and coral is that I don't wish to spend all of my money on
lighting and other such things(my choice). So, please J R-S, tell me,
what are my alternatives? Where can I go for these alternatives? How
much am I looking to spend? It's irresponsible not to tell me...so, tell
me. Give me a choice.

I believe that is the sentiment of the group. Not that you have ingenuity
and **** and vinegar. Not that you have a revolutionary new system. The
crux of the matter is you are recommending invisible things to new
aquarists...and sharing an irresponsible amount of your findings. Telling
people it's ok to go and spend almost nothing on lights and filters and
keep anything they want...it's simply not true today(maybe with the JRS
patented system it will be many years down the road), it's been proved
time and time again. Now if you have a *way* to do that...fine. But
until everybody else can do it(which will be many, many years, 8 months is
not scientifically significant), keep it quiet. You are encouraging
cruelty to animals. I don't doubt that you have a tank full of critters
that you have kept alive for 8 months...there was a guy who came on here
saying he left his tank in a divorce situation and the wife didn't do
water changes for 2 years and he lost like one fish...he didn't have the
JRS patented filtration system. The hobby isn't simply to keep critters,
it's to keep them healthy and as happy as they can be in a glass box. So
that many many years of joy can be had. That's why we spend the money.

I have cats too. I *can* go 8 months without changing their litter box,
I'm confident they'd live...but is that responsible to make them fester in
their own mess? Just a thought.



J R-S wrote:
Listen Don!
I just came here with an alternative to expensive aquariums. My
aquariums by any means will be as good as any put together by a
professional aquarist. That is not my intention.
I developed a fish-with-little-coral tank that has been working for more
than 8 months without a water change.
Not telling that to new aquarists and instead saying that the only
alternative is an overrated ilumination system is irresponsible.
But, they are free people, they can make their own choice, can't they?
so, don't make the choice for them...

Exactly, I did say that my filter was worth patenting, NOT MY ILLUMINATION
SYSTEM.
I hope you get it this time.
Also, the only reason I put my researches to the side to venture in this
world is because a friend of mine showed me a REEF AQUARIUM 150 gals that
has cost him more than $3k. I saw it and told him that he was wasting his
money, that the same could be achieved with half of what he spent. I meant
the filtering system including water changes. I did just that and my system
will be in display soon and pictures will be posted here. Just for the hell
of it I will buy some corals and throw it in to see if the thrive.
I believe they will.
jrs
"Pszemol" wrote in message
...
"J R-S" wrote in message
...
You are right about your observation.
In this thread, THAT SHOULD'VE BEEN DEAD A LONG TIME AGO! we are argueing
about two different systems.
Is just that a while back, when all the confussion started and the mixed
up happened, your friend Wayne, argued that even anemonies needed that
light and I said now, then everyone started defending the expensive
illumination refering to corals and I said it is not needed for my
systems.
Well, I am not "trying" to say that it was Wayne's fault (an aquarist) I
am saying that it is!

Try to understand, that people keeping animals not requiring expensive
lights do not buy expensive lights... Nobody is crazy enough to spend
money on stuff they do not really need. The same is with filtration...
Keeping one guppy fish in a 100 gallon tank will not require expensive
filtration... All is in details: what animals, how many, how big tank
etc...
If you try to claim something extraordinary, than you need to provide
extraordinary proof. And this proof is your responsibility as claimant.
So far, from what you have said, I have not noticed anything
extraordinary.
But you claim it is something like that, something worth patenting...
It is not Wayne who said you have great invention worth a patent, you did!

"J R-S" wrote in message ...
Exactly, I did say that my filter was worth patenting,
NOT MY ILLUMINATION SYSTEM.
I hope you get it this time.

I got it first time. Jaime, we are not morons here... :-)
I understand what you are trying to say... believe me!

You said two different things:

1 - you have invented a filter doing magic to the tank canceling
the need for water changes and you want to patent this magical filter
"pretty soon, as soon as things settle out"... :-)

2 - people do not need expensive lights for their reef tanks,
they can do very well with $100 fixture from Petco...

People here say both statemets are false, Jaime. Try to understand this...
Both statements are extraordinary and both require extraordinary proofs.
It would be similar in any other extraordinary claim you made, like the one
you keep a baby elefant in your backyard and feed it with red beans from a can :-)
Understand?

Also, the only reason I put my researches to the side to venture in this
world is because a friend of mine showed me a REEF AQUARIUM 150 gals that
has cost him more than $3k. I saw it and told him that he was wasting his
money, that the same could be achieved with half of what he spent.

Maybe it could be, maybe not... We could judge if we knew details on:
- what tank was it (FO, FOWLR, REEF)
- what animals exactly were kept in the tank
- how many animals, how much live rock, etc.
- what equipment he has purchased totaling more than $3000.

It is possible he spend his money on stuff not needed in a reef tank
with live rock (like UV lamp, big and expensive canister filters).
I see many people buying such stuff recomended by the store without
doing their own research. I would not generalize about the whole hobby
based on one example of naive customer coming to the store not knowing
anything himself.
It is equaly possible he has purchased correct equipment with a lot
of expensive live rock, nice skimmer, nice lights and these $3000 were
well spend on necessary equipment.
As I said - we need details to judge this purchasing decision.
The details you did not provide. Saying somebody spent $3000 on a fish
tank and saying it is too much without knowing anything about the tank
is silly. You can buy $3000 computer and $300 computer, but they will
not be the same...

I meant the filtering system including water changes.
I did just that and my system will be in display soon and pictures
will be posted here.

Cool! In the meantime you can say something more about his system
and your system - you can keep the secret about your magic filter
for yourself. Tell us about the animals which are kept in both
systems (are they the same?) and elaborate a little more on his
system - what exacly has he spent his $3000 on.

Just for the hell of it I will buy some corals and throw it in
to see if the thrive. I believe they will.

You make me laugh a lot with such remarks like the one above...
We do not care listening to your believes, this is not rec.religion
newsgroup. Let's talk about REAL FACTS, not your unfounded believes.

Wow, I thought I was allowed to post in a public internet forum. I'll
sin all I want by the way. But that's a post for another forum. I love
me some sinning. You insults sadden me J, I thought a brilliant mind
like yourself would have a better sense of humor. I'm not in need of
attention, but I clearly got some...and I love it...we all do. I was
just asking a sincere question...Why, as a person whom has dedicated so
many years to learning about animals, are you endangering them with your
irresponsibility?

My fish are fine with the light they have...I said I wanted light
sensitive critters, which you don't have...my bad.

An inexpensive filtration system...well that's just not new...I thought
you were recommending inexpensive lights...and had data, or at least a
therory, to back it up. There is a well respected guy on this forum
that tells how to build your own filtration system for probably $20(a
complete guess, I never looked into it) worth of stuff from Home
Depot...Water changes aren't expensive either...I spend maybe $60 every
six or so months on salt..That's less than I spend on cat litter...so
that savings is moot. In my 1 year of fish keeping I've spent the
following.

$600 for tank and stand and lights(I'm guessing this is necessary in the
JRS Patented system)
$180 protein skimmer (your's is probably cheaper...but lets be honest
they are all $3.00 worth of parts with $177 mark-up...your's, if
commercially availible, will be no different)
$100 other filtration (same concept as skimmer)
$100 on some live rock(not needed, I just wanted some).
$300 on the inhabitants. (You're not going to sell me cheaper fish are you?)
$120 on salt. (Well I assume you need some to start your system...so you
maybe save me half)

So you save me $60/year...and my fish get to live in their own **** and
poop forever...nah, I'll spend the $60.



J R-S wrote:
Well Pat, I am not a babysitter, if you are in need of attention, go to your
dad or your mom.
If all you want is an illumination for your tank, well, I am using an All
Glass 36" TT on a 100 gals aquarium.
Now, go and sin no more! I hope I acted responsibly..
Oh! I forgot, the filtering system, well that I am not telling yet!

"J R-S" wrote in message ...
Well Pat, I am not a babysitter, if you are in need of attention,
go to your dad or your mom.

Why are you always trying to be rude?

I am using an All Glass 36" TT on a 100 gals aquarium.

I can imaging an aquarium with no lights at all,
using only ambient light dispersed in your room.
It would be enough for keeping lets say - octopus.
But not all aquariums are created equal, so one
man lights will not necessarly fit another man tank.

J R-S wrote:
Listen Don!
I just came here with an alternative to expensive aquariums.

No, you didn't. You came here saying you have such a thing, but you will not
provide any information about it. When I ask how such a thing is done, you tell
me to ask some of the regulars on the group. So, you have NOT come here with
alternatives to anything. Just claims for which you refuse to provide any support.

In other words, on the face of it, you are a bald-faced liar.

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.

J R-S wrote:
... then everyone started defending the expensive illumination
refering to corals and I said it is not needed for my systems.

No, you didn't. You said it is not needed for THEIR systems, and said they were
fools for spending that kind of money.

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.