Strange behavior...

HI, Kathy:
I am absolutely going to bundle up and go test the water shortly. It's only
30 degrees here today! I am, as I type this, doing a partial water
change. Then I hope the temperature will climb at least a few degrees so I
can put my filter back together, get the UV filter out there, and get the
pond up and running. I normally wouldn't consider it while it's still so
cold, but if I'm going to save my critters I have to do something. Yes, it
makes sense that the water parameters could have changed quickly - heck, the
weather here keeps changing quickly! I went to lunch the other day without
a coat on, and today I'm talking about bundling up!

My "zoo" has become SO much smaller since I went back to work full-time.
It now only consists of a mastiff, a pug, a Blue and Gold Macaw, an
African Grey, 2 horses, 5 turtles, 3 frogs, and 50 or so fish. Not too
long ago I also had a Shih-tzu and a cat, but they both died of old age
within a month of each other. And I've also had three monkeys in my
life, which is something I would love to do again, but can't possibly do
while working. They require a LOT of time and attention. Being a
zookeeper yourself, you probably subscribe to my philosophy: "The more I
know people, the more I love my pets". (People on this board are excluded,
of course)
Thanks for writing about my water parameters, I'll bet that's what's going
on, BUT..... why would that cause them to all huddle behind the potted
plant?????
Sue
"Zookeeper" wrote in message
...
Hi Sue. Have you checked your water quality? Sometimes the water
parameters (pH, KH, ammonia, nitrite, etc. levels) change so quickly in
the spring, that the water becomes slightly toxic and the fish react by
zipping around and jumping. You might want to do a 20-30% water change
just in case.

P.S. What other critters do you have in your "Zoo"? I'm "zookeeper"
because of our three dogs, one cat, one rabbit, and 13 koi, two teenage
boys and one teenage (51 yo) husband, but in the past our zoo has
included another cat, goldfish and a gecko ;-)
--
Zk, aka Kathy
3500gal pond, 13 pond piggies
Oregon, USDA Zone 7

SueAndHerZoo wrote:
... I don't know why, but the water seems more
green this year than it has in any previous years ... I
... noticed my big platinum koi acting kind of frisky.
He was swimming fast around the perimeter, and even did
a little jump ... I took a walk out there ... and found
that he was trapped behind the potted plant! Not only that,
but there were 4 five others trapped, too! (one dead)

What in heck possessed them to all go back there and get
stuck all of a sudden? ... why this
year, and why all of them? ...

HI, Kathy:
I am absolutely going to bundle up and go test the water shortly. It's only
30 degrees here today! I am, as I type this, doing a partial water
change. Then I hope the temperature will climb at least a few degrees so I
can put my filter back together, get the UV filter out there, and get the
pond up and running. I normally wouldn't consider it while it's still so
cold, but if I'm going to save my critters I have to do something. Yes, it
makes sense that the water parameters could have changed quickly - heck, the
weather here keeps changing quickly! I went to lunch the other day without
a coat on, and today I'm talking about bundling up!

My "zoo" has become SO much smaller since I went back to work full-time.
It now only consists of a mastiff, a pug, a Blue and Gold Macaw, an
African Grey, 2 horses, 5 turtles, 3 frogs, and 50 or so fish. Not too
long ago I also had a Shih-tzu and a cat, but they both died of old age
within a month of each other. And I've also had three monkeys in my
life, which is something I would love to do again, but can't possibly do
while working. They require a LOT of time and attention. Being a
zookeeper yourself, you probably subscribe to my philosophy: "The more I
know people, the more I love my pets". (People on this board are excluded,
of course)
Thanks for writing about my water parameters, I'll bet that's what's going
on, BUT..... why would that cause them to all huddle behind the potted
plant?????
Sue
"Zookeeper" wrote in message
...
Hi Sue. Have you checked your water quality? Sometimes the water
parameters (pH, KH, ammonia, nitrite, etc. levels) change so quickly in
the spring, that the water becomes slightly toxic and the fish react by
zipping around and jumping. You might want to do a 20-30% water change
just in case.

P.S. What other critters do you have in your "Zoo"? I'm "zookeeper"
because of our three dogs, one cat, one rabbit, and 13 koi, two teenage
boys and one teenage (51 yo) husband, but in the past our zoo has
included another cat, goldfish and a gecko ;-)
--
Zk, aka Kathy
3500gal pond, 13 pond piggies
Oregon, USDA Zone 7

SueAndHerZoo wrote:
... I don't know why, but the water seems more
green this year than it has in any previous years ... I
... noticed my big platinum koi acting kind of frisky.
He was swimming fast around the perimeter, and even did
a little jump ... I took a walk out there ... and found
that he was trapped behind the potted plant! Not only that,
but there were 4 five others trapped, too! (one dead)

What in heck possessed them to all go back there and get
stuck all of a sudden? ... why this
year, and why all of them? ...

yes!! also, get aeration in the pond and what are your salt levels? Ingrid

Zookeeper wrote:
Hi Sue. Have you checked your water quality? Sometimes the water
parameters (pH, KH, ammonia, nitrite, etc. levels) change so quickly in
the spring, that the water becomes slightly toxic and the fish react by
zipping around and jumping. You might want to do a 20-30% water change
just in case.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

Thanks, everyone. Yes, the nitrites tested high, but of course I have to
wonder why, since I've never had this problem before, especially not when
it's still below freezing at night.

Did a big water change, got the filter/waterfall going, threw in two more
air stones (now there are four) and added some salt. (This is the first
time I've ever added salt to the pond). Tested for nitrites again a day
later and they are now "0", thank goodness, BUT.... the fish are still
acting weird. I've removed the plant they were trying to hide behind, so
now they are all trying to squeeze behind the rock border (the parts that
hang down into the water) and they are all trying to cram themselves into
the skimmer - I have to keep getting them out of there. What are they
hiding or running from??????
Sue
wrote in message
...
yes!! also, get aeration in the pond and what are your salt levels?
Ingrid

Zookeeper wrote:
Hi Sue. Have you checked your water quality? Sometimes the water
parameters (pH, KH, ammonia, nitrite, etc. levels) change so quickly in
the spring, that the water becomes slightly toxic and the fish react by
zipping around and jumping. You might want to do a 20-30% water change
just in case.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

SueAndHerZoo wrote:
BUT.... the fish are still
acting weird. I've removed the plant they were trying to hide behind, so
now they are all trying to squeeze behind the rock border (the parts that
hang down into the water) and they are all trying to cram themselves into
the skimmer - I have to keep getting them out of there. What are they
hiding or running from??????

Just in case...

Do you have any big plant pots that would sink on their own you could
toss in the pond for them to hide in/under/behind? Some short sections
of black plastic pipe would work well (you could probably get a lumber
yard to chop one up for you), and might blend in on the bottem well
enough to just leave there.

You have mud, do you have otter tracks? Kid tracks? Any osprey or
heron in the area?

No obvious animal tracks, and the kids in the neighborhood have pretty much
left the pond alone for the past two years - luckily the novelty wore off
for them.

Yes, I had a problem with a heron last year, BEFORE I bought the scarecrow.
And yes, there ARE submerged hiding places for them on the bottom of the
pond.... I sunk some in the fall for the frogs/fish to hide in if they chose
to. They seem to want to be at the top, near an edge, cramming themselves
into tight quarters. If I wasn't so worried about them it would almost be
funny, 5 huge koi all cramming into one tiny spot.
Sue
"Offbreed" wrote in message
...
SueAndHerZoo wrote:
BUT.... the fish are still
acting weird. I've removed the plant they were trying to hide behind,
so
now they are all trying to squeeze behind the rock border (the parts
that
hang down into the water) and they are all trying to cram themselves
into
the skimmer - I have to keep getting them out of there. What are they
hiding or running from??????

Just in case...

Do you have any big plant pots that would sink on their own you could
toss in the pond for them to hide in/under/behind? Some short sections
of black plastic pipe would work well (you could probably get a lumber
yard to chop one up for you), and might blend in on the bottem well
enough to just leave there.

You have mud, do you have otter tracks? Kid tracks? Any osprey or
heron in the area?

No obvious animal tracks, and the kids in the neighborhood have pretty much
left the pond alone for the past two years - luckily the novelty wore off
for them.

Yes, I had a problem with a heron last year, BEFORE I bought the scarecrow.
And yes, there ARE submerged hiding places for them on the bottom of the
pond.... I sunk some in the fall for the frogs/fish to hide in if they chose
to. They seem to want to be at the top, near an edge, cramming themselves
into tight quarters. If I wasn't so worried about them it would almost be
funny, 5 huge koi all cramming into one tiny spot.
Sue
"Offbreed" wrote in message
...
SueAndHerZoo wrote:
BUT.... the fish are still
acting weird. I've removed the plant they were trying to hide behind,
so
now they are all trying to squeeze behind the rock border (the parts
that
hang down into the water) and they are all trying to cram themselves
into
the skimmer - I have to keep getting them out of there. What are they
hiding or running from??????

Just in case...

Do you have any big plant pots that would sink on their own you could
toss in the pond for them to hide in/under/behind? Some short sections
of black plastic pipe would work well (you could probably get a lumber
yard to chop one up for you), and might blend in on the bottem well
enough to just leave there.

You have mud, do you have otter tracks? Kid tracks? Any osprey or
heron in the area?

SueAndHerZoo wrote:
BUT.... the fish are still
acting weird. I've removed the plant they were trying to hide behind, so
now they are all trying to squeeze behind the rock border (the parts that
hang down into the water) and they are all trying to cram themselves into
the skimmer - I have to keep getting them out of there. What are they
hiding or running from??????

Just in case...

Do you have any big plant pots that would sink on their own you could
toss in the pond for them to hide in/under/behind? Some short sections
of black plastic pipe would work well (you could probably get a lumber
yard to chop one up for you), and might blend in on the bottem well
enough to just leave there.

You have mud, do you have otter tracks? Kid tracks? Any osprey or
heron in the area?

SueAndHerZoo wrote:
Thanks, everyone. Yes, the nitrites tested high, but of course I have to
wonder why, since I've never had this problem before, especially not when
it's still below freezing at night.

Did a big water change, got the filter/waterfall going, threw in two more
air stones (now there are four) and added some salt. (This is the first
time I've ever added salt to the pond). Tested for nitrites again a day
later and they are now "0", thank goodness, BUT.... the fish are still
acting weird. I've removed the plant they were trying to hide behind, so
now they are all trying to squeeze behind the rock border (the parts that
hang down into the water) and they are all trying to cram themselves into
the skimmer - I have to keep getting them out of there. What are they
hiding or running from??????

Just idle musing, but perhaps they aren't hiding from anything. Are these
items they are attempting to wedge themselves behind near the surface
and/or in an area with low current? Nitrite poisoning converts hemoglobin
into a form unable to transport oxygen. This effectively lowers the amount
of oxygen that the blood can carry to the organs. When nitrite gets too
high, it can even literally suffocate the fish from the inside by
converting too much hemoglobin. I have to wonder if their behavior is in
response to nitrite poisoning. They may be trying to wedge themselves to
conserve energy (no having to swim against current) because of the loss of
oxygen transport in their bloodstream due to the nitrites. This may be the
cause of the behavior, especially if their respiration appears to be
extreme too (gasping behaviors). You probably didn't observe it when temps
dropped to freezing at night because of the lower metabolism (less oxygen
demand) that accompanies lower temps.

Good news is you've done the right steps to mitigate nitrite poisoing
(water changes and adding salt) so if this is the cause, it should resolve
shortly. That is of course assuming there wasn't an ammonia spike before
the nitrite spike that damaged the gills. Some of the other behaviors you
described (darting across the surface of the water and jumping out) are
also consistent with ammonia poisoning. At this point though, you've done
the best you can in terms of remeding the water quality. Now is time to
monitor (both behavior and water parameters) and see.

Oh, Thank you! That makes SO much sense, and I have no doubt that is what
the poor things are trying to do. Now I feel so badly for taking away the
plant that was keeping them motionless, and for continually trying to move
them away from the rocks they're hovering behind.

At this point I'm thinking I should give them back some things on the plant
ledge that will help them rest and stay immobile. Thank you again for
explaining WHY they are doing this - I have learned so much from this
experience, though unfortunately at the cost of my poor koi's health. I can
only hope I get the chance to make it up to them. (I've been growing a huge
container of red worms for them all winter in the garage - hope the fish
live long enough to enjoy them when the water finally warms up. It's
supposed to snow here today in Connecticut!
Sue
"Cichlidiot" wrote in message
...
SueAndHerZoo wrote:
Thanks, everyone. Yes, the nitrites tested high, but of course I have
to
wonder why, since I've never had this problem before, especially not
when
it's still below freezing at night.

Did a big water change, got the filter/waterfall going, threw in two
more
air stones (now there are four) and added some salt. (This is the
first
time I've ever added salt to the pond). Tested for nitrites again a
day
later and they are now "0", thank goodness, BUT.... the fish are still
acting weird. I've removed the plant they were trying to hide behind,
so
now they are all trying to squeeze behind the rock border (the parts
that
hang down into the water) and they are all trying to cram themselves
into
the skimmer - I have to keep getting them out of there. What are they
hiding or running from??????

Just idle musing, but perhaps they aren't hiding from anything. Are these
items they are attempting to wedge themselves behind near the surface
and/or in an area with low current? Nitrite poisoning converts hemoglobin
into a form unable to transport oxygen. This effectively lowers the amount
of oxygen that the blood can carry to the organs. When nitrite gets too
high, it can even literally suffocate the fish from the inside by
converting too much hemoglobin. I have to wonder if their behavior is in
response to nitrite poisoning. They may be trying to wedge themselves to
conserve energy (no having to swim against current) because of the loss of
oxygen transport in their bloodstream due to the nitrites. This may be the
cause of the behavior, especially if their respiration appears to be
extreme too (gasping behaviors). You probably didn't observe it when temps
dropped to freezing at night because of the lower metabolism (less oxygen
demand) that accompanies lower temps.

Good news is you've done the right steps to mitigate nitrite poisoing
(water changes and adding salt) so if this is the cause, it should resolve
shortly. That is of course assuming there wasn't an ammonia spike before
the nitrite spike that damaged the gills. Some of the other behaviors you
described (darting across the surface of the water and jumping out) are
also consistent with ammonia poisoning. At this point though, you've done
the best you can in terms of remeding the water quality. Now is time to
monitor (both behavior and water parameters) and see.