Grounding Probe

That pump was bad since day one. The replacement works great.

Marc

J wrote:

pumps need the/a GFCI too. Didn't you have a pump failure recently? just a
thought.
feel free to tell me shut up if I'm pestering you..lol
"Marc Levenson" wrote in message
...
They aren't. I have two circuits in my room. Each is a 20amp breaker,
but one
is GCFI. My lighting is on the GCFI, as well as my heaters. The return
pumps
are on the regular outlets.

I've had the electrician out here two times to get it set up the way I
like it.

Marc


J wrote:

Marc all your eggs in one basket is a very not smart idea. Home depot
has
three for $20 outlet style I'm sure you could install them or I can if
you
feel uncomfortable.
"

--
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"SG" wrote in message ...
In article , Pszemol wrote:

In your case I would fix the light fixture and
I would get rid of the probe for sure.

Do not get rid of the ground probe. It could save your life.
All sal****er tanks should have a ground probe.

GFCI saves life... Grounding probe is designed just to keep
your fish from getting sick from stray voltages - but I guess
it is only a marketing thing rather than a real deal... because
the real thing is that grounding probe is making things worse
for your fish. It creates stray currents which are far worse
than stray voltages for a living things. But this is only IMHO.
I would be happy to hear from you about grounding probe saving
lives... please explain how does it do it?

"mark" wrote in message . ca...
what rating of a GFCI should I get? 5-6mA or what ,to insure my safety?

Standard, 5-6mA, protects you from geting killed.
It will not protect you from just getting shocked.
You can feel the current on the level of 1mA.
5mA is already very painful and you GFCI could
pass this kind of current without tripping off.
If you can get lower rated GFCI - do not buy it...
It could trip without a good reason and it could be
anoying like hell.

And one more thing as a warning - one time I purchased
a pluged GFCI and it tripped every time a power outage
happened. It did not matter it lasted 1 minute or 1 hour.
Power went down, GFCI plug disconnected the circuit :-(

My tank powered by this GFCI was shut off for the whole
night just because power went down for a minute at 10pm
and I did not go to the tank to check things up...
Next morning my shrimp was laying bottom up on the sand.
It slowly recovered when I turned pumps on and it was
a miracle for me... but the GFCI plug went to the garbagge.

GFCI saves life... Grounding probe is designed just to keep
your fish from getting sick from stray voltages - but I guess
it is only a marketing thing rather than a real deal... because
the real thing is that grounding probe is making things worse
for your fish. It creates stray currents which are far worse
than stray voltages for a living things. But this is only IMHO.
I would be happy to hear from you about grounding probe saving
lives... please explain how does it do it?

it saves the lives of my blue spot stingray

i went through a un commented number of them after I got my first, the tank is outside,
and they would not do well, I bought that tank used, with the ray, it took only a few days
to kill it, and the next ...... there was very very little stray voltage leaking from
something but it was bothering him, now the probe, and cooler temps and ive been keeping
the same one for a while ill have to dig out dates but I think its over a year now.

I would suspect that a grounding probe **WITH** a GFCI would do a good job at sending that
stray current away from the guy with his hand in his tank, between the time that the shock
occurs and the GFCI trips, but read into that third word suspect in this statement as I
have no proof either way. just seems the probe is a much less resistant path then a guy
with his arm in a tank

--
richard reynolds

it saves the lives of my blue spot stingray

i went through a un commented number of them after I got my first, the
tank is outside,
and they would not do well, I bought that tank used, with the ray, it took
only a few days
to kill it, and the next ...... there was very very little stray voltage
leaking from
something but it was bothering him, now the probe, and cooler temps and
ive been keeping
the same one for a while ill have to dig out dates but I think its over a
year now.

So you are saying, that grounding water column and leading much stronger
electric current out of this failured device to ground, through the water
and
the stingray was better than leaving voltage not grounded? It does not make
sense - try to imagine birds sitting on a 20kV wire hanging between
hig-voltage
poles. Do they feel stray voltage around them in the air? On their legs?
NOT!
They would certainly feel it when somebody would aproach them with a
something
like a "grounding probe". Their would become a nice, birdy fireworks :-)
The same works with water, stray voltage in the water, and leading these
voltages
to ground with a grounding probe. Basicaly, the interest of normally
grounded
human (shoes?) putting his hand into the water and acting as a poor
grounding
probe conflicts with the interest of fish inside the tank. Fish do not want
any
grounding probe in their tank, like birds sitting on 20kV wire do not want
any
grounding probes near them.

I would suspect that a grounding probe **WITH** a GFCI would do a good job
at sending that
stray current away from the guy with his hand in his tank, between the
time that the shock
occurs and the GFCI trips, but read into that third word suspect in this
statement as I
have no proof either way. just seems the probe is a much less resistant
path then a guy
with his arm in a tank

As I said - there are two different aspects of this issue and both need to
be
discussed separatelly. In my opinion, I am sufficiently protected against
being electocuted by the GFCI plug and I do not need additional grounding
probe. In this case I would not install one to not put miliamps not tripping
GFCI
going through the bodies of my fish inside the tank. Yes, I will risk being
stung
by the small voltage not tripping GFCI normally, showing itself as a stray
voltage,
but I would take this risk just to not make any currents flow in the water
column.

Bottom line: GFCI - big YES, Grounding Probe - big NO!

"richard reynolds" wrote in message . ..
first off rays and sharks sense electrical differences and use that to hunt so YES he
noticed that he was on a 20kv wire even if a bird wont notice it. there are biological
receptors(?) (shark experts jump in and tell me what its called) that sences very very
low pockets(?) of electricity using that to find prey, and hide from prediators

OK - I would ask the next question - do they sense voltage difference
or maybe electric currents flowing? Assuming the very low impedance of
the salt water pointed here several times, it should be rather currents
because it will be most likely no significant voltage potentials in the seawater.
I am not a shark/ray expert myself - we should ask some marine biologist :-)

second you assume its a device, you make an assumption that honestly I do make myself, BUT
at the same time cant find your also assuming this stray voltage occurs FROM the tank and
goes into the sump where one of the probs are also something I cant prove either way, this
is a preditor tank, there are 2 NO flor lights above a glass plate and as its outside that
light fixture has been sealed its 100% submersiable and even without the lights its an
issue, thats the only AC in or around the tank, everything else is in the sump. IF it were
a failing device in the sump and IF it grounded to the probe so it would shock the water
in the sump not an issue. there are no closed loops/powerheads or anything else in the
tank all the electrical is in the sump

1. Fluorescent lights can be very big, sometimes the biggest source,
of electricity in the water. It is the biggest source in case of
my DIY fixture with no metal reflectors (I used glass mirrors).
Even if the lamp connectors are sealed the tube itself radiates
electromagnetic waves through the glas. Make a test, and touch
a glass part of tube with a burned starter - it will glow. It
glows from current flowing from the connectors, through the glass,
your hands to the ground. The same is when the water is grounded.

2. Assuming all other devices are in the sump, together with the probe
there is no risk that your probe will electrocute your fish when your
powerhead will loose the insulation and starts leaking electricity to
water. It will be shorted to the probe and GFCI will trip - no problem.
Unfortunately it will not cure the problem with fluorescent fixture or
any other elec. device submersed in the tank itself instead of the sump.

I say it cant be seperate it HAS to be kept together its always
a risk to livestock vs risk to ourselves. both need to be eliminated

I agree that sharks owners have bigger problems if their fish
are feeling stray voltages... But sharks in home aquariums are
a big mistake anyway... so there is another story right here :-))

Bottom line: GFCI - big YES, Grounding Probe - big NO!

again disagreeing here

I challenge you to prove your point of view based on the science :-)
I would be glad proven wrong - I am always happy to learn something new ;-)

GFCI's are installed in bathrooms and kitchens because you are literally
surrounded by potential grounds. The plumbing system! Running Water! Metal
Basins! etc...

You can hold an AC hot wire and not get shocked if you are not grounded....

Not the name is GROUND FAULT CIRCUIT INTERRUPTER... You have to have a
ground fault to trip the circuit interrupter....


--
Stephen
--------------------------------------------------
In-Dash MP3
http://www.highwaymp3.com/
--------------------------------------------------


"Pszemol" wrote in message
...
"J" wrote in message
news:TeGVa.15711$YN5.13321@sccrnsc01...
Without a grounding probe how will the leaking voltage trip the GFCI.
It WONT,

Yes, it would, using your body grounded to the floor as a conductor.
How is a GFCI working in your bathroom without "grounding probe"? :-)
How is a GFCI on your hair-dryer working without a probe? :-)

YOU WILL BE THAT PATH for the potential/voltage in the tank.

Exactly.
This is the reason GFCI will trip on a safe level of current.
No GFCI manufacturer is selling their device as protecting
against electrick shock. They sell these to prevent you being
KILLED by the electric current. You can still feel a sting.

I myself would rather a GFCI trip once in a while rather than
electrocute myself but to each his own.

Right. And since I know in an event of a device leaking I would
NOT be electrocuted because GFCI will tripp BEFORE the current
rises to a dangerous levels, I do not see the reason to use probe.

I'm in my third semster in
Electronics and have a certificate in Electrical as well as H.V.A.C. and
have worked in Commercial building automation so you decide who to
believe.
GFCI's NEED GROUNDING to work properly it says so on the box.

:-))) Oh well... Good luck in your study :-)

I think I made my point but I do not expect to convince everyone.

"Stephen" wrote in message ...
GFCI's are installed in bathrooms and kitchens because you are literally
surrounded by potential grounds. The plumbing system! Running Water! Metal
Basins! etc...

The same situation could happen in any other wet environment.
Such as fish tank: salt water spilled on the floor wehre you stand
combined with a faulty electric device submersed in the water where you
put your hands can be very deadly combination and that is the reason
smart people recommend GFCI for us to power fish tanks equipment from.

You can hold an AC hot wire and not get shocked if you are not grounded....

Right. Is there anybody claiming anything else here?
See my "birds sitting on a 20kV wire" example... :-)

Not the name is GROUND FAULT CIRCUIT INTERRUPTER... You have to have a
ground fault to trip the circuit interrupter....

I hope you do not derive all your knowledge about GFCI from its name ;-)

I can easily imagine a scenario when GFCI will trip when grounding
will be perfect and DO NOT trip when grounding is faulty...
If your imagination does not work for some reason I can give you
full description of such scenarios.
Is then the GFCI name wrong? Let's change it! ;-)

He's a troll I believe. The answers to all his statements and questions are
in my post but he won't listen or understand.


"Stephen" wrote in message
...
GFCI's are installed in bathrooms and kitchens because you are literally
surrounded by potential grounds. The plumbing system! Running Water! Metal
Basins! etc...

You can hold an AC hot wire and not get shocked if you are not
grounded....

Not the name is GROUND FAULT CIRCUIT INTERRUPTER... You have to have a
ground fault to trip the circuit interrupter....


--
Stephen
--------------------------------------------------
In-Dash MP3
http://www.highwaymp3.com/
--------------------------------------------------


"Pszemol" wrote in message
...
"J" wrote in message
news:TeGVa.15711$YN5.13321@sccrnsc01...
Without a grounding probe how will the leaking voltage trip the GFCI.
It WONT,

Yes, it would, using your body grounded to the floor as a conductor.
How is a GFCI working in your bathroom without "grounding probe"? :-)
How is a GFCI on your hair-dryer working without a probe? :-)

YOU WILL BE THAT PATH for the potential/voltage in the tank.

Exactly.
This is the reason GFCI will trip on a safe level of current.
No GFCI manufacturer is selling their device as protecting
against electrick shock. They sell these to prevent you being
KILLED by the electric current. You can still feel a sting.

I myself would rather a GFCI trip once in a while rather than
electrocute myself but to each his own.

Right. And since I know in an event of a device leaking I would
NOT be electrocuted because GFCI will tripp BEFORE the current
rises to a dangerous levels, I do not see the reason to use probe.

I'm in my third semster in
Electronics and have a certificate in Electrical as well as H.V.A.C.
and
have worked in Commercial building automation so you decide who to
believe.
GFCI's NEED GROUNDING to work properly it says so on the box.

:-))) Oh well... Good luck in your study :-)

I think I made my point but I do not expect to convince everyone.

My goal is not to force you to change your mind.
My goal was to express my opinion on this subject.
It is up to each of us to make the best decision
in order to care for animals we take our responsibility for.

I know !

As much as the 'theory' about stray voltages is appealing, and might explain
some strange or weird behaviors of our fish, including causes for HLLE in some fish,
no evidence has been shown to support such allegations.

there is some evidence but as i hinted to the study basically says we need to study it
which isnt enough.

Please, describe your setup in more details. What do you use for water circulation?
What devices are submersed in the water column? Where is the probe placed in the water?

being a preditor tank the ONLY circulation is from the sump to tank (and back duh )
the sump is a 20long
the tank is a 75 and completely covered in diatom algae

the only thing in the tank is the ray, a porcupine puffer, a 4" very fine sand bed (forget
dsb the ray tosses it over and over) and a ground probe (not the only one, not always in
there)


as its outside and as outside is easy to get to dirt to ground it instead of using the
ground wire from the main i ran a seperate wire 10gague solid copper to a 10' grounding
rod burried about 9' deep its all of 4' from the sump to the rod the box from the main has
a circuit breaker plus one of them hard cutoff switches the breaker is a gfci breaker,
this is attached to both ground probes and the canister heater one ground probe is in the
sump the other is in the tank. the heaters grounded but I THINK that its only the outside
thats really grounded not the part that touches the water when its working, ive tested
this a few times and to the best i could come up with this is the case.

I have 2 skimmers both americal typhoon's ran with rio 3500's with the rio rtv adapter
YES IVE CHECKED THEM THERE NOT THE CAUSE figured id get that straight out because w/o it
ppl are gona jump on these poor rios

the return pump which ive checked out over and over is a slightly older little giant 3-md
something

there is a canister heater which probibly hasnt even flickerd sence april and a fan on a
thermostat its ran on sence april

tank temp is kept around 72~74tops

i get the same very very small stray voltage going through the probe

What do you mean "voltage going through the probe"?
I have already explained here a mistake people do measuring the voltage.
You can prove me wrong by using very different voltmetter and measuring
the voltage again. Tell me please what you have read from both readings.

ill have to dig up details ive posted them before and while ive done it a few times, id
like to not mess up the details.
ive used analog and digital meters in several AC and DC modes, all good meters.

for all I can tell there is NOTHING in the tank adding to
any current besides the tank/water/fish

Tell me more how did you find out about this.

trial and error and a few dead rays I should point out the "for all I can tell" part
one more time.

though I havent taken any scientificly acurate method of chasing down
whatever is the cause, maybee i will probibly wont, i like the guy
but what i have is working

I am glad you are happy. But you can help others adding more details
about your setup. Please do.

ill be glad to do any tests you can think of in the interest in providing a better place
, but I'd like to not re do them all, the last time I went through all of these I lost a
ray, there $80 a pop Id rather not kiss this one bye bye along with the $80 to get a
replacement (side note good ad for live aquaria every time ive had to replace them they
have been real good about getting one that fit my wishes)

I am not an electronics expert, but ive been around the block many times. all the major
electrical work like the grounding rod and the run from the mains was done by a licensed
electrcian as rqd by local code I even went as far as having it all inspected by a
different guy just to make sure it wasnt something fsked up with the first guys wiring

--
richard reynolds