DSB questions

kim gross writes:
The hermits will eat larval forms of most creatures before they get a
chance to get into the sand bed. If you would like to research this a
little your self here are a couple of good links.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/forumd... 3&forumid=40
http://www.rshimek.com/reef/sediment.htm
http://www.reefs.org/library/talklog...ie_061498.html
http://www.reefs.org/library/article...in_shimek.html

I couldn't find any mention of hermit crabs (especially any negative
recommendation with respect to deep sand beds, as you're suggesting) in
any of those links.

There are a lot more, but what makes a deep sand bed work well is the
amount of life in the sand bed, not just that it has a bed that is 3 or 4
inchs deep. With lots of life in the sand you can feed tha tank heavier
plus many of the creatures in the sand will spawn creating zooplankton in
your tank for your corals to eat.

I agree with all of that. But do you have any documentation that hermit
crabs (e.g. blue-leg) are something to be avoided in a DSB reef tank?

This is counter to an overwhelming amount of recommendation that a reef tank
should have a high population of them as a cleaning crew. Of course, that
isn't evidence either way, and if you've actually done an experiment that would
be quite interesting.

I might not be the best speller but at least I know what I am talking about.

The links you suggested don't support your claim. Have you actually done
controlled experiments yourself? Run two (sets of) tanks, identical
parameters, except for the presence of hermit crabs? And then measured the
sand bed populations of various creatures? Do you find more pods, worms,
feather dusters...all of the above?

Why is it that none of the other professional deep sand bed advocates
mention this issue, especially since adding hermit crabs is such a
universal recommendation?

-- Don
__________________________________________________ _____________________________
Don Geddis http://reef.geddis.org/
One thing vampire children have to be taught early on is, don't run with a
wooden stake. -- Deep Thoughts, by Jack Handey

Sorry to be incomlete. Its been full of water for 3 weeks now I have
all live sand directly from the gulf of mexico 4 inces thick. In the
middle of setting up= almost fully cycled adding rock and creatures
slowly.





Marc Levenson wrote in message ...
Hi Brad,

What do you mean by "in the middle of setting up"? First day? First month?
"In the middle" of cycling? Need more input!

Hermit crabs will not hurt the fauna in your DSB, but you do need to "seed" with
LS from someone else's tank, or from the LFS's display / refugium.

Marc


Brad Irwin wrote:

I am in the middle of setting up a new tank and am using a DSB. I just
went out and bought some bule leg and red leg hermits and a brittle
star to stir up the sand a little. The hermits seem to be eating the
organisms in the sand is this a bad thing, are they eating the
organisms?

Brad

Is there any creatures that will stir the sand bed and NOT eat any of
the creatures in it????



kim gross wrote in message ...
Thomas Bishop wrote:

"Marc Levenson" wrote in message...

Talk about lack of agreement! We posted the exact opposite of each other.



Here's one in favor of you, Marc.

Add as many hermits as you can cram into your tank. Well, okay, maybe not
that many, but about one for every 2 gallons is a general rule. Hermits
will not eat the creatures that make a DSB a DEEP sand bed. They may eat
some of the critters on the surface, but will mainly eat algae when
available. Many thousands of DSB'ers have hermits of all kinds and have
plenty of life in and on the sand bed.

The two people who are against hermits with a DSB can't even spell
"opportunistic." Not trying to be mean, just poking a little fun.

Thomas, If think your DSB is as live as you can get it, why don't you
try an experiment, remove your all of your hermits for 2 months and
compare the amount of life in your sand bed. The hermits will eat
larval forms of most creatures before they get a chance to get into the
sand bed. If you would like to research this a little your self here
are a couple of good links.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/forumd... 3&forumid=40

http://www.rshimek.com/reef/sediment.htm

http://www.reefs.org/library/talklog...ie_061498.html

http://www.reefs.org/library/article...in_shimek.html

There are a lot more, but what makes a deep sand bed work well is the
amount of life in the sand bed, not just that it has a bed that is 3 or
4 inchs deep. With lots of life in the sand you can feed tha tank
heavier plus many of the creatures in the sand will spawn creating
zooplankton in your tank for your corals to eat.

I might not be the best speller but at least I know what I am talking about.

"Brad Irwin" wrote in message
om...
Is there any creatures that will stir the sand bed and NOT eat any of
the creatures in it????

YES, they are called Humans, ever heard of em? but personally I don't like
the idea of doing it myself and wouldn't trust another to put anything in my
tanks


kc

In article , kim gross
wrote:

To actually eat the algea a fighting
conch is a pretty good creature to have.

Will the conch cause trouble with other tank inhabitants? Something
about the reference to "fighting" conch makes me nervous...

--
To reply by email, please edit return address as indicated.

Chauncey Gardener wrote:
In article , kim gross
wrote:


To actually eat the algea a fighting
conch is a pretty good creature to have.


Will the conch cause trouble with other tank inhabitants? Something
about the reference to "fighting" conch makes me nervous...

No,

The Conch is a herbivore and will not bother anything, but they do a
great job of keeping the sand clean. A Queen conch is great also, but
they get way to big for most tanks. The queen can grow to over a foot,
while I believe the fighting conch only goes to about 1/2 that size max.

Kim
http://www.jensalt.com

Don Geddis wrote:




I couldn't find any mention of hermit crabs (especially any negative
recommendation with respect to deep sand beds, as you're suggesting) in
any of those links.

Try reading these.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...ghlight=hermit

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...ghlight=hermit

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...ghlight=hermit

There are a lot more, but what makes a deep sand bed work well is the
amount of life in the sand bed, not just that it has a bed that is 3 or 4
inchs deep. With lots of life in the sand you can feed tha tank heavier
plus many of the creatures in the sand will spawn creating zooplankton in
your tank for your corals to eat.


I agree with all of that. But do you have any documentation that hermit
crabs (e.g. blue-leg) are something to be avoided in a DSB reef tank?



Please read the few links I have above from posts by one of the experts
in DSB in his reefcentral forum.


This is counter to an overwhelming amount of recommendation that a reef tank
should have a high population of them as a cleaning crew. Of course, that
isn't evidence either way, and if you've actually done an experiment that would
be quite interesting.


I might not be the best speller but at least I know what I am talking about.


The links you suggested don't support your claim. Have you actually done
controlled experiments yourself? Run two (sets of) tanks, identical
parameters, except for the presence of hermit crabs? And then measured the
sand bed populations of various creatures? Do you find more pods, worms,
feather dusters...all of the above?
No I have not done controlled experiments. I have seen hermit crabs
eating things in my tank, so I know that if they are removed there will
be more life in my tank. Have you done any controlled experiments to
show that hermits will not harm the life in a DSB?





Why is it that none of the other professional deep sand bed advocates
mention this issue, especially since adding hermit crabs is such a
universal recommendation?

If you ever talk to Dr. Ron Shimek you will find that he does not
advocate hermit crabs. Actually he is the one that brought the
nassarius snails to the hobby as a replacement for hermit crabs. You can
also check with Eric Borneman, or Ron

Here is a quote from Dr Ron in referance to Eric Borneman about hermit crabs

I consider no hermit crab as being reef aquarium safe. They all prefer
to eat small animals to any other food, and will consume small animals
in your system. If you do get other animals reproducing in your tank,
they will eat the babies.

I think Eric Borneman described them best as "eco-terrorists."

On natural coral reefs, hermit crabs are found in densities of 1 per 10
square meters to 1 per 100 square meters. I think that they should be
kept in our tanks in equivalent desities (roughly 1 hermit per 100 to
1000 square feet of tank space.).

Yes, the worms and other creatures in it. You really don't need sand
stirrers.

http://www.rshimek.com/reef/sediment.htm


Brad Irwin wrote:

Is there any creatures that will stir the sand bed and NOT eat any of
the creatures in it????



kim gross wrote in message ...

Thomas Bishop wrote:


"Marc Levenson" wrote in message...


Talk about lack of agreement! We posted the exact opposite of each other.





Here's one in favor of you, Marc.

Add as many hermits as you can cram into your tank. Well, okay, maybe not
that many, but about one for every 2 gallons is a general rule. Hermits
will not eat the creatures that make a DSB a DEEP sand bed. They may eat
some of the critters on the surface, but will mainly eat algae when
available. Many thousands of DSB'ers have hermits of all kinds and have
plenty of life in and on the sand bed.

The two people who are against hermits with a DSB can't even spell
"opportunistic." Not trying to be mean, just poking a little fun.

Thomas, If think your DSB is as live as you can get it, why don't you
try an experiment, remove your all of your hermits for 2 months and
compare the amount of life in your sand bed. The hermits will eat
larval forms of most creatures before they get a chance to get into the
sand bed. If you would like to research this a little your self here
are a couple of good links.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/forumd... 3&forumid=40

http://www.rshimek.com/reef/sediment.htm

http://www.reefs.org/library/talklog...ie_061498.html

http://www.reefs.org/library/article...in_shimek.html

There are a lot more, but what makes a deep sand bed work well is the
amount of life in the sand bed, not just that it has a bed that is 3 or
4 inchs deep. With lots of life in the sand you can feed tha tank
heavier plus many of the creatures in the sand will spawn creating
zooplankton in your tank for your corals to eat.

I might not be the best speller but at least I know what I am talking about.