Betta in a VASE

I just looked at a couple of anti peace lily/betta websites and they say
the lily roots rot and foul the water. I checked some horticultural
sites, and they also say that peace lilies cannot have roots in standing
water.

Peace lilly, Spathiophylum, is an aroid, like hostas or crypts are
are primary bog/marsh plants. I would not put one in *unconditioned*
soil that was submersed as the decomposing soil will mess it up
right quick but in clean water or evern proper aquatic soil,
- that's a different story.

http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Plants/Spathiphyllum.html

From Steve Pushak:
"Despite being one of the slowest growing plants in my aquarium, I have
kept two specimens of Spathiphyllum alive and growing completely
submerged for several years"

http://www.flowercouncil.org/uk/news...thiphyllum.asp

"Spathiphyllum is actually a marsh plant. Which can stand in water for
months at a time in its natural habitat. In this case the plant will
produce special leaves adapted to life under water. The flowers appear
above the surface of the water."

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In article .com,
IDzine01 wrote:
Betta vases are dangerous for so many reasons. The most obvious is the
blocking of the water's surface. Regardless of how much dissolved
oxygen is in the water, Bettas always use their labyrinth organ. In a

.... to breathe atmospeheric oxygen.

case of a lily vase, it's just a matter of time before the oxygen level
drops and Betta literally drowns. All aggressive jumping in the world
isn't going to allow them to reach the surface of the water in the vase
shown in the link.

If you've kept bettas and watched them get stuck you'd know how hard they
try to get air. If there's even a tiny opening in the water surface
they'll find and use it. You might be surpeise how strong they are.

Also, this is not a complete ecosystem. I don't care how shallow a rice
paddy gets, it is still part of a complete ecosystem fed by a larger
body of water.

They have found in depressions as small as heelprints in the mud.
(Brown's account in a recent TFH)

Nitrofying bacteria cannot establish themselves in a
vase. Aquatic plants can reduce nitrate in the water but it will not do
enough to remove toxic ammonia. In fact, being terrestrial, Peace
Lilies will contribute to the ammonia build up when it deteriorates in
the water... as Elaine said.

Plants primarily consume ammonia. THey have to reduce nitrate to
ammonia to use it (except crytps which can use nitrate directly)

There are also feeding issues and water parameter stability issues that
need to be addressed as well. There are so many reasons why a Betta
vase is bad I can't even begin to guess why folks wouldn't emmediately
denounce their use.

The only question I have is can there be enough microbials life
on the roots to sustain the betta. Bettas eat quite a bit, but whatever
the answer is I would not be surprised.

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In article ,
winddancir wrote:

Check under local specials. Or
http://www.blossomflower.com/product.cfm/iteID/1916
And most of the instructions I've seen say don't feed the fish, don't
rinse off the roots of the plant, don't change the water.

THat all makes sense. The only issue I see is evaporation.
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Richard Sexton wrote:
I just looked at a couple of anti peace lily/betta websites and they say
the lily roots rot and foul the water. I checked some horticultural
sites, and they also say that peace lilies cannot have roots in standing
water.


Peace lilly, Spathiophylum, is an aroid, like hostas or crypts are
are primary bog/marsh plants. I would not put one in *unconditioned*
soil that was submersed as the decomposing soil will mess it up
right quick but in clean water or evern proper aquatic soil,
- that's a different story.

http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Plants/Spathiphyllum.html

From Steve Pushak:
"Despite being one of the slowest growing plants in my aquarium, I have
kept two specimens of Spathiphyllum alive and growing completely
submerged for several years"

http://www.flowercouncil.org/uk/news...thiphyllum.asp

"Spathiphyllum is actually a marsh plant. Which can stand in water for
months at a time in its natural habitat. In this case the plant will
produce special leaves adapted to life under water. The flowers appear
above the surface of the water."

Weird. I thought extensions were usually good resources.

http://www.ext.vt.edu/departments/en...s/peaclil.html
http://hgic.clemson.edu/factsheets/HGIC1512.htm

These must be based on soil that won't work in bog conditions. Maybe
I'll try one on the edge of my pond this summer.

--
__ Elaine T __
__' http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__

If you've kept bettas and watched them get stuck you'd know how hard
they
try to get air. If there's even a tiny opening in the water surface
they'll find and use it. You might be surpeise how strong they are.

I've kept many bettas but never in a situation where they had to fight
to breathe. This is no way to treat a live animal. You are suggesting a
situation that is likely to create stress and health problems.

They have found in depressions as small as heel-prints in the mud.
(Brown's account in a recent TFH)

Please post a link or more information where I can find this, because
the old Betta in a hoof print is so commonly used by people arguing for
smaller tanks that is has practically become an Urban Fish Legend. I
suspect one guy found a Betta in a hoof print, posted his findings on
the internet and the rest was history.

When there are so many options for appropriate Betta homes should we
really be encouraging people to buy these vases? It's up to the
experienced aquarists to teach new hobbyists how to provide for their
pets. The whole set-up trivializes the painstaking work aquarists go
through to maintain a system as close to what nature provides as
possible. It sends the wrong message and worse, unnecessarily exposes
the fish to a life of stress and disease.

These vases are widely rejected by aquarists and deemed as inhumane.
They have been pulled off the shelves of major retailers all over the
U.S. (maybe world, I have no idea) and much of it has to do with the
influence of experienced hobbyists and possibly the petitions that have
been circulating for quite some time. I haven't even seen a vase since
2001 myself. (until this post, though I'm not surprised they still
exist) As long as there are people to buy them, there will be some that
will sell them. Anyone wanting to convince the masses that they are now
safe definitely has their work cut out for them.

In article .com,
IDzine01 wrote:

If you've kept bettas and watched them get stuck you'd know how hard
they
try to get air. If there's even a tiny opening in the water surface
they'll find and use it. You might be surpeise how strong they are.

I've kept many bettas but never in a situation where they had to fight
to breathe. This is no way to treat a live animal. You are suggesting a
situation that is likely to create stress and health problems.

Right now I have a tank on my desk with a make and a female in a cup
floating. If you've bred bettas you may be familiar with his.

The cup moves around a bit, it's floating after all, and bettas,
not being the brightest of fish sometimes make bad decisions.

Occasionaly the male in a frenzy of prespawning display activity
will put himself between the cup and the tank wall and is effectively
stuck. Never mind he has lots of room to get air elsewhere,
he is now determined to get air where he is, so he'll writhe,
wriggle and jump to get air, pushing the cup out of the
way.

They have found in depressions as small as heel-prints in the mud.
(Brown's account in a recent TFH)

Please post a link or more information where I can find this, because
the old Betta in a hoof print is so commonly used by people arguing for

I did, but to be more specific, Aug 24 TFH, P94, Tony Pinto's
article discusses the phenomenon of not being able to find
much in the way of bettas in small slow moving streams but
how many species of bettas are found in "flooded forest
floors"... "we did find plenty of fry in the leaf litter of
forest areas"... "... the rain arrived in the early evening,
and while taking cover under the trees we decided to fish in the
shallow leaf litter, not really expecting any success. So imagine
our surprise..." (when they pulled 20 fish out of there).

Because of their labyrinth bettas just needto be wet to survive;
one of my cats knocked a jar with a female onto the floor
last week and the poor thing was there for 3 hours in a puddle
that didn't come close to covering her. She's fine and eating like
a pig as I wrote this.

If you read a lot of aquarium literature it's full of annecdotes
of how little water it takes to sustain bettas in the wild. I'm
not sure where I read the cattle hoofprint story it may have
been Hoedemanns book. Rivulus has also been found in cattle
footprints (in South America) and will flop around on
we mud looking for the next hols to inhabit (Roger Brosseau,
pers. comm.s).

Any killifan familair with "Rivulus punctatus population Jim
Robinson's bsement floor" knows hoe little water fish need
to survive and these are fish without labyrinths.

http://new.killi.net/keeping/tanks/jbf/

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Richard,

For a second there I thought you were saying that Tony Pinto was the
one who published the original story of the betta in the hoof print. I
almost fell off my chair vowing to tell him how crazy he has made me
with that story the next time I see him. (LOL) Only, as I read on, I
realized that wasn't the case. :-D

FYI: If you are in the area, (MA), Tony will be speaking on 3/21 about
his adventures in fish catching. It should be really interesting and
I'm sure it'll be geared toward anabantoids.

Anyway, I'm getting off track. My point is that I don't believe lily
vases are the best possible or even good homes for Bettas. It doesn't
come close to replicating nature and it's not an ecosystem in and of
itself. With some heavy customization, you might be able to convert it
into an acceptable home. Otherwise, a cycled tank is the way to go.

~C
ps. I appreciate the debate.

Just because bettas in the wild can survive like that doesn't mean we can treat our pets like that. Would I keep my very active 3 yr old in a closet? NO! Why should I treat my fish that way? I would think that any sensible fish owner would provide good conditions for the living creature they provide for. In a way, the child analogy is a good one. Because you are responsible for the child or pet all their lives (just ask any parent, just because a child has grown up, does not mean they do not need/love/care for their parents.)
I did see one betta in a vase combo where the store DID take care of it properly, and it was not for sale. partial water changes, rinsing the plant, and very important, feeding the betta. The female in question looked quite happy. No signs of stress that I could see.

The major point on this is most people are not told how to properly care for them, and the plant is usually totally unsuitable for this type of set up. I keep mine in small 1 gal to 2 gal tanks, with a small java fern. They are very friendly, and appear to have a blast playing with the java fern. My female has a bad habit of jumping over a leaf that is up at the surface, so she's in a 2 gal tall tank, with 4 in of space between the secure lid and the water. As far as I can tell, she does this for fun!

For a second there I thought you were saying that Tony Pinto was the
one who published the original story of the betta in the hoof print. I
almost fell off my chair vowing to tell him how crazy he has made me
with that story the next time I see him. (LOL) Only, as I read on, I
realized that wasn't the case. :-D

No, no hoofprints, but he's the one that was catching them in "leaf litter
puddles".

FYI: If you are in the area, (MA), Tony will be speaking on 3/21 about
his adventures in fish catching. It should be really interesting and
I'm sure it'll be geared toward anabantoids.

I've never met him althouh I keep hearing stories from friends
that do nkow him. Sounds like a fun guy.

Anyway, I'm getting off track. My point is that I don't believe lily
vases are the best possible or even good homes for Bettas. It doesn't
come close to replicating nature and it's not an ecosystem in and of
itself. With some heavy customization, you might be able to convert it
into an acceptable home. Otherwise, a cycled tank is the way to go.

Well, I think the point is almost any container that keeps them
wet will work, and at the end of the day is depends on the aquarist
and my concern with these things would be that people buy them that
realy don't have a clue how they work or how to care for a fish. But
when you consider what percentage of fish are killed by well meaning
aquarists it's pretty saddening; best to ignore it and do the right
thing with your own stuff.

If they'r enot screwed up in some way I don't see why they wouldn't
work though, there's a reason these fish have evolved over a very
long time to have the labyrinth organ instead of using gills
exclusively.

Offhand I'd guess very few bettas ever see a cycled tank; that
sure dosn't make sense if you're breeding them.

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I agree...
I bought my betta. phantom from an LFS about2 months ago....he was very sad
looking and not moving much (he was in a jar). I took him home and put him
in a set up 40 litre tank.....He is obviously alot more happy there,
swimming around, flaring at the filter and lying on his side to sleep on a
single glass pebble i left in the aquarium....

Hes been such a joy to watch...he makes me laugh!
"winddancir" wrote in message
. ..

Just because bettas in the wild can survive like that doesn't mean we
can treat our pets like that. Would I keep my very active 3 yr old in a
closet? NO! Why should I treat my fish that way? I would think that any
sensible fish owner would provide good conditions for the living
creature they provide for. In a way, the child analogy is a good one.
Because you are responsible for the child or pet all their lives (just
ask any parent, just because a child has grown up, does not mean they
do not need/love/care for their parents.)
I did see one betta in a vase combo where the store DID take care of it
properly, and it was not for sale. partial water changes, rinsing the
plant, and very important, feeding the betta. The female in question
looked quite happy. No signs of stress that I could see.

The major point on this is most people are not told how to properly
care for them, and the plant is usually totally unsuitable for this
type of set up. I keep mine in small 1 gal to 2 gal tanks, with a small
java fern. They are very friendly, and appear to have a blast playing
with the java fern. My female has a bad habit of jumping over a leaf
that is up at the surface, so she's in a 2 gal tall tank, with 4 in of
space between the secure lid and the water. As far as I can tell, she
does this for fun!


--
winddancir