AVERAGE LIFE OF YELLOW TANG - UPDATE

"George Patterson" wrote in message
news:qXUee.1096$7G.1039@trndny01...
George wrote:

In many cities, they are now required in bathrooms or anywhere where there
are live wires and water.

This is also in the national electrical code. All bathroom outlets, outside
outlets, and outlets over kitchen counters must be protected with a GFCI
breaker. They're also highly recommended (and in some areas required) in any
room with a concrete floor. Here in New Jersey, the buyer is required to
install them in bathrooms and kitchens in houses which do not have them when
the house is sold.

There's also a circuit breaker that's similar that's now required for any
circuit that services a bedroom wall outlet. Can't remember the name
(something like BFI), but its purpose is to prevent electrical fires.

Once enough aquarium enthusiasts get zapped, expect regulations to change for
this industry as well.

Bet you're right. I'm not looking forward to crawling upside down under my
cabinet stand, but I'll be putting one in as soon as I find my round twoit
(and my back brace :-) ).

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

lol.

"George" wrote in message news:TRZee.61608$WI3.54789@attbi_s71...
Hm... I do not advocate agains the GFCI.
I just said I do not expect it doing any change to his measurements!

If you read the whole thread you would found out he measured 48VAC
between tank water column and the cooper pipes for tap water...
I just know voltage measurements of this kind are worthless.
Yes, very similar to pH measurements of RO/DI water... ;-)

It will, in fact change his measurements completely, because 48 VAC will likely
carry significant amperage (more than 4 or 5 milliamps), which is more than
enough to trip the GFCI, and completely shut down everything. So after this
happens, he shouldn't read any voltage, and definitely no amperage.

I am taking from above that you did not read the original poster...
His 48VAC reading was even after he has unplugged all his devices.

Please read his original words
Could you explain then how GFCI could influence his voltage readings ?

"Pszemol" wrote in message
...
"George" wrote in message
news:TRZee.61608$WI3.54789@attbi_s71...
Hm... I do not advocate agains the GFCI.
I just said I do not expect it doing any change to his measurements!

If you read the whole thread you would found out he measured 48VAC
between tank water column and the cooper pipes for tap water...
I just know voltage measurements of this kind are worthless.
Yes, very similar to pH measurements of RO/DI water... ;-)

It will, in fact change his measurements completely, because 48 VAC will
likely carry significant amperage (more than 4 or 5 milliamps), which is more
than enough to trip the GFCI, and completely shut down everything. So after
this happens, he shouldn't read any voltage, and definitely no amperage.

I am taking from above that you did not read the original poster...
His 48VAC reading was even after he has unplugged all his devices.

Please read his original words

Could you explain then how GFCI could influence his voltage readings ?

No, what he said was "I measured the AC voltage from the copper inlet pipe to
the tank water -- by sticking the probe into the water. Was I surprised. I
measured 48 VOLTS AC !!!! I then began unplugging equipment. "

So he unplugged equipment 'after' he measured 48 volts, which means that
equipment was leaking current into the tank. He then proceeded to describe the
voltage he got after he unplugged various appliances. He also said in a later
post "I am installing a GFCI this weekend. I will then see what measurments I
get. Should have done this anyway - being around water." So we will have to
wait and see what his results are. I suspect that if he plugs all of the same
equipment (the ones that showed voltage leakage according to his measurements)
into that GFCI, it will trip the circuit, shutting off the power. He will
likely have to replace some of this equipment in order to prevent the GFCI from
tripping.

"Russ J." wrote:

I didn't realize my question would spark such a controversy!

Here is an update.:
My tank ( 75 gallon FO) is quite near the water meter into the house. I have
a Fluke Digital VOM used for work. Model 12 -- pretty good unit. I measured
the AC voltage from the copper inlet pipe to the tank water -- by sticking
the probe into the water. Was I surprised. I measured 48 VOLTS AC !!!! I
then began unplugging equipment. First the heater. - dropped 6 volts to 42
VAC. Next the UV - Dropped 2 more volts. Then the Empereor 400 dropped
another 2 volts. Then the Flouresent lamp dropped 2 more volts. Then the
Eheim filter -- another 2 volts. Then the skimmer another 2 volts. When
EVERYTHING was unplugged - I still had a reading of 32 Volts AC. I put the
ground probe in the water attached to the water line. Voltage went to .009
Volts AC. I watched the fish to see if proximity to the probe changed their
behavior - Nope. I reconnected everyhing and the voltage went to .011 VAC.
That's an increase of only 2 millivolts. I'm going to keep the ground probe
in the tank and see if the LLE on the Tang begins to reverse. I'll post my
results.
( I'll also be very careful not to drop anything in the water !)

Russ

Digital meters are notorious for detecting stray voltages that
have no appreciable current flow producing ability. Try
re-reading with a cheep analog meter (I keep one taped to the
back of my Fluke

Paul

"George" wrote in message news:X0gfe.63729$WI3.37219@attbi_s71...
I am taking from above that you did not read the original poster...
His 48VAC reading was even after he has unplugged all his devices.

Please read his original words

Could you explain then how GFCI could influence his voltage readings ?

No, what he said was "I measured the AC voltage from the copper inlet pipe to
the tank water -- by sticking the probe into the water. Was I surprised. I
measured 48 VOLTS AC !!!! I then began unplugging equipment. "

So he unplugged equipment 'after' he measured 48 volts, which means that
equipment was leaking current into the tank. He then proceeded to describe the
voltage he got after he unplugged various appliances.

You have stopped your reading too soon. He wrote:
"When EVERYTHING was unplugged - I still had a reading of 32 Volts AC."
I admit, I mentioned incorrectly 48V, but 32VAC makes not a big difference.
When all devices are unpluged we have the proof that 32VAC is NOT coming
from these devices. And GFCI will not change the readings.

We can make some efforts to explain what is the possible source of
his 32VAC but this is a different story... It could be even his
local radio station and his tank acts like an RF antenna...
It does not matter. His high impedance voltmeter will pick up
any voltages, even from the air, and it does not mean his devices
are leaking electricity, what was prooven with unplugging them all
and still recording non-zero reading.

I suspect that if he plugs all of the same
equipment (the ones that showed voltage leakage according to his measurements)
into that GFCI, it will trip the circuit, shutting off the power. He will
likely have to replace some of this equipment in order to prevent the GFCI from
tripping.

And I will bet that everything is fine with his devices, George.
His measurement method is wrong! If he had any device leaking,
his high-impedance voltmeter would show voltage close to 120VAC
and only when the suspected device is plugged to the mains.

George you just can't seem to get a fix on the subject matter but just like to argue :-)

"So he unplugged equipment 'after' he measured 48 volts, which means that
equipment was leaking current into the tank"

NO IT DOES NOT

Almost anything electrical will produce "Induced Voltage", without any leaking what so
ever. Electrical equipment produces a electrical filed, which cause induced voltage ,
i.e.. wires, motors, lights, sockets. You can actually take a 10 gal aquarium full of
seawater and stick in front of a wall socket and it will induce a few volts. YOU DO NOT
NEED CURRENT TO GET VOLTAGE. A lamp cord going to a lamp on the table and passing behind
you tank can induce voltageint the water. We have beat this subject to death over the
years, do a search on it, here or the internet. There are many articles on it, some by
electrical engineers, who have tested and studied it well. Do you know what an Amp-Clamp
is and how it works ? Most voltages in the aquarium are meaningless. 48 volts is nothing,
start getting worried when it reads 90 or 100, etc. that is a leak. After years of debate
it is felt by most authorities always install a Grounding probe and GFCI.

So, do you want to listen this time or argue ??

Have a nice day

--
Boomer

Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php


Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS

If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up

"Pszemol" wrote in message
...
"George" wrote in message
news:X0gfe.63729$WI3.37219@attbi_s71...
I am taking from above that you did not read the original poster...
His 48VAC reading was even after he has unplugged all his devices.

Please read his original words

Could you explain then how GFCI could influence his voltage readings ?

No, what he said was "I measured the AC voltage from the copper inlet pipe to
the tank water -- by sticking the probe into the water. Was I surprised. I
measured 48 VOLTS AC !!!! I then began unplugging equipment. "

So he unplugged equipment 'after' he measured 48 volts, which means that
equipment was leaking current into the tank. He then proceeded to describe
the voltage he got after he unplugged various appliances.

You have stopped your reading too soon. He wrote:
"When EVERYTHING was unplugged - I still had a reading of 32 Volts AC."
I admit, I mentioned incorrectly 48V, but 32VAC makes not a big difference.
When all devices are unpluged we have the proof that 32VAC is NOT coming
from these devices. And GFCI will not change the readings.

Sir. If there are 32 VAC in the tank, I assure you that the GFCI will trip.
Obviously he missed something. When I first checked out voltages in my tank, I
got a reading in the 30 volt range. One by one I disconnected appliances, and
found that all were contributing small voltages to the tank. When I finally had
all appliances not just turned off, but unplugged, the voltage went to 0.


We can make some efforts to explain what is the possible source of
his 32VAC but this is a different story... It could be even his
local radio station and his tank acts like an RF antenna...
It does not matter. His high impedance voltmeter will pick up
any voltages, even from the air, and it does not mean his devices
are leaking electricity, what was prooven with unplugging them all
and still recording non-zero reading.

It means that he either missed an appliance or that he is picking up stray
voltages. Picking up stray voltages doesn't mean that the tank itself it
charged. If he is using a copper water pipe in the house for a ground
connection, maybe that is a source of the stray readings, since copper pipes
make good AM antannas, for instance. He should use the ground in his wall
outlet, or even better, a filtered ground from a battery backup device for a
computer. My understanding is digital voltmeters are more susceptible to stray
voltage readings, but usually those are in the millivolt, not volts range. I
have radio shack's "best" analogue multimeter, and it seems to be pretty
accurate.

I suspect that if he plugs all of the same equipment (the ones that showed
voltage leakage according to his measurements) into that GFCI, it will trip
the circuit, shutting off the power. He will likely have to replace some of
this equipment in order to prevent the GFCI from tripping.

And I will bet that everything is fine with his devices, George.
His measurement method is wrong! If he had any device leaking,
his high-impedance voltmeter would show voltage close to 120VAC
and only when the suspected device is plugged to the mains.

Well, that has no been my experience, so we'll have to see what his result is.

"Boomer" wrote in message
...
George you just can't seem to get a fix on the subject matter but just like to
argue :-)

"So he unplugged equipment 'after' he measured 48 volts, which means that
equipment was leaking current into the tank"

NO IT DOES NOT

If he unplugged the appliances one by one and got a voltage drop each time
(which he did), it certainly does mean that the voltages are coming from the
appliances. Oh, and I do understand about induced voltages, and have posted a
couple of articles about it right here in this newsgroup. Regardless of whether
the voltages are induced or leaking, if those voltages induce a current in the
water, you can get shocked, the animals in the tank can be adversely affected,
and a GFCI WILL trip. That is all I'm saying here.

Almost anything electrical will produce "Induced Voltage", without any leaking
what so
ever. Electrical equipment produces a electrical filed, which cause induced
voltage ,
i.e.. wires, motors, lights, sockets. You can actually take a 10 gal aquarium
full of
seawater and stick in front of a wall socket and it will induce a few volts.
YOU DO NOT
NEED CURRENT TO GET VOLTAGE. A lamp cord going to a lamp on the table and
passing behind
you tank can induce voltageint the water. We have beat this subject to death
over the
years, do a search on it, here or the internet. There are many articles on it,
some by
electrical engineers, who have tested and studied it well. Do you know what an
Amp-Clamp
is and how it works ? Most voltages in the aquarium are meaningless. 48 volts
is nothing,
start getting worried when it reads 90 or 100, etc. that is a leak. After
years of debate
it is felt by most authorities always install a Grounding probe and GFCI.

A ground fault interupter is what I have been recommending in nearly all of my
posts about this issue, including the first one I posted regarding this issue.
If YOU had been paying attention to my posts a little more carefully, you would
have noted that.

So, do you want to listen this time or argue ??

Have a nice day

Do you want to shut the **** up and stop trolling me, or what?

"George" wrote in message news:SMxfe.67538$WI3.26796@attbi_s71...
Sir. If there are 32 VAC in the tank, I assure you that the GFCI will trip.
Obviously he missed something.

Assuming he missed a device - you are right...
But give this man a credit - if he is saying he unplugged EVERYTHING
then I believe him, because I can understand how can high-impedance
voltameter give a false voltage reading. Measuring voltages with digital
meter is not a good idea in this particular case... Better the meter
is, the better chance he has to measure it WRONG, since better
meter will have in most cases, larger input impedance, making it
hard to measure correctly risk in this particular case...

If he said he is measuring 20mA flowing from tank to ground and
nothing is plugged to the wall, then I would be sceptical...
But voltages, without measuring current - that I can believe.

When I first checked out voltages in my tank, I
got a reading in the 30 volt range. One by one I disconnected appliances, and
found that all were contributing small voltages to the tank. When I finally had
all appliances not just turned off, but unplugged, the voltage went to 0.

The only correct measurement of the quality of insulation
is an insulation meter, which applies 600-1000V to the
device and measures the current flowing through the insulator.
If it passes the test at 600V you can be sure nothing wrong
is with the device at 120V. Measuring voltages between water
and copper pipe is not a good way to approach the matter.

It means that he either missed an appliance or that he is picking up stray
voltages. Picking up stray voltages doesn't mean that the tank itself it
charged. If he is using a copper water pipe in the house for a ground
connection, maybe that is a source of the stray readings, since copper pipes
make good AM antannas, for instance. He should use the ground in his wall
outlet, or even better, a filtered ground from a battery backup device for a
computer. My understanding is digital voltmeters are more susceptible to stray
voltage readings, but usually those are in the millivolt, not volts range. I
have radio shack's "best" analogue multimeter, and it seems to be pretty
accurate.

If his copper piping is not grouded he could have the false reading as well.
You are right. But what are the chances his water line is not grounded?
Mosta likely it will be connected with delivery pipe dug under ground.
So usually it is a good source of ground, unless there is a break in
copper lines and you go from metal to plastic (PVC) and back to coper.
Again - blindly assuming anything is wrong... If you want your measurements
be accurate you cannot "assume" anythin, you need to verify everything.
And I would start with checking if what I assume is a good ground (his
copper pipes) is really good ground... Eliminating so trivial mistake
like not unplugging a faulty device giving this 32V reading nothing else
comes to my mind than his tank water, conducting electricity almost as good
as metal acts as antenna, or his pipes are not really grounded...

And I will bet that everything is fine with his devices, George.
His measurement method is wrong! If he had any device leaking,
his high-impedance voltmeter would show voltage close to 120VAC
and only when the suspected device is plugged to the mains.

Well, that has no been my experience, so we'll have to see what his result is.

We will see. But if he trully had unplugged all devices and still had
32VAC than adding GFCI will not change the reading nor cause GFCI to trip.

"Pszemol" wrote in message
...
"George" wrote in message
news:SMxfe.67538$WI3.26796@attbi_s71...
Sir. If there are 32 VAC in the tank, I assure you that the GFCI will trip.
Obviously he missed something.

Assuming he missed a device - you are right...
But give this man a credit - if he is saying he unplugged EVERYTHING
then I believe him, because I can understand how can high-impedance
voltameter give a false voltage reading. Measuring voltages with digital
meter is not a good idea in this particular case... Better the meter
is, the better chance he has to measure it WRONG, since better
meter will have in most cases, larger input impedance, making it
hard to measure correctly risk in this particular case...

If he said he is measuring 20mA flowing from tank to ground and
nothing is plugged to the wall, then I would be sceptical...
But voltages, without measuring current - that I can believe.

When I first checked out voltages in my tank, I got a reading in the 30 volt
range. One by one I disconnected appliances, and found that all were
contributing small voltages to the tank. When I finally had all appliances
not just turned off, but unplugged, the voltage went to 0.

The only correct measurement of the quality of insulation
is an insulation meter, which applies 600-1000V to the
device and measures the current flowing through the insulator.
If it passes the test at 600V you can be sure nothing wrong
is with the device at 120V. Measuring voltages between water
and copper pipe is not a good way to approach the matter.

It means that he either missed an appliance or that he is picking up stray
voltages. Picking up stray voltages doesn't mean that the tank itself it
charged. If he is using a copper water pipe in the house for a ground
connection, maybe that is a source of the stray readings, since copper pipes
make good AM antannas, for instance. He should use the ground in his wall
outlet, or even better, a filtered ground from a battery backup device for a
computer. My understanding is digital voltmeters are more susceptible to
stray voltage readings, but usually those are in the millivolt, not volts
range. I have radio shack's "best" analogue multimeter, and it seems to be
pretty accurate.

If his copper piping is not grouded he could have the false reading as well.
You are right. But what are the chances his water line is not grounded?
Mosta likely it will be connected with delivery pipe dug under ground.
So usually it is a good source of ground, unless there is a break in
copper lines and you go from metal to plastic (PVC) and back to coper.
Again - blindly assuming anything is wrong... If you want your measurements
be accurate you cannot "assume" anythin, you need to verify everything.
And I would start with checking if what I assume is a good ground (his
copper pipes) is really good ground... Eliminating so trivial mistake
like not unplugging a faulty device giving this 32V reading nothing else
comes to my mind than his tank water, conducting electricity almost as good
as metal acts as antenna, or his pipes are not really grounded...

And I will bet that everything is fine with his devices, George.
His measurement method is wrong! If he had any device leaking,
his high-impedance voltmeter would show voltage close to 120VAC
and only when the suspected device is plugged to the mains.

Well, that has no been my experience, so we'll have to see what his result
is.

We will see. But if he trully had unplugged all devices and still had
32VAC than adding GFCI will not change the reading nor cause GFCI to trip.

If you assume that the 32 VAC carries no current. If it does, GFCI will likely
trip.