Bottom Drains - Nice Article From a Website

Incorrect. A wax toilet base seal has only momentary water flow through
it when you flush the toilet. There is thousands of pounds of water
weight (pressure) sitting on top of the seal, constantly expanding and
shrinking as the temperature changes in your pond. This expansion and
contraction will result in a leak in the bottom drain fitting to pond
liner connection over time and make your life complicated.

And just how do you think they've managed all these year with bottom drains
in swimming pools that are of the liner type?

This is not true. Even with a perfectly operating bottom drain you WILL
get an accumulation of muck and debris. That is unless you have NO
gravel or rocks on the pond liner bottom.

That's why it is recommended by the AKCA and many of us here (Google for
Rocks or Not) for not rocking a pond.

However, most people have rocks and gravel

Now this is where you are just plain inexperienced. Most people do not have
rocks, and many who did, don't have them now.

You need to perform spring and fall
maintenance. (Start-up and Winterization)

Without rocks, with a bottom drain, there is no needed for such muscle
straining work in the spring or winter. The work is only dealing with the
filter.

1. I am not a marketing rep. I am a 55 year old retired engineer from
the Federal Aviation Administration. I built the website for my
daughter and son-in-law at www.pondkoi.com.

You are representing a company (family owned) that deals in ponds, are you
not?

Regardless that your son-in-law doesn't work for Aquascape now, this design
is #1 because of great marketing and people seeing the beauty and not
realizing the high maintenance needed. My club informs people that they
MUST do the yearly recommended maintenance as they'll soon have a cesspool
with this design. If draining and power washing their pond yearly isn't
appealing, come on over to the AKCA way of doing it. They've been doing and
giving advice far, far longer than the Aquascape design has been in play.

One thing I will say about AS, they have assimilated a lot more people into
ponders, and this is a very good thing.

Congratulations on your first grandchild. I'm hoping my recently
married son will wait awhile (no matter how much I'd like one), as he's in
the Army, based at Ft.Hood and has already done a year in Iraq. ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

Hi Jan:
I know from past conversation that you really dont like ponds with rocks
in. But while I don't claim to be any kind of expert, nor do I object
to others making different pond design choices I do wish to offer my
data point to the discussion (besides it beats reading the toll posts)

I am 5 years into my pond experience with a pond lined bottom and sides
with with river rock. Our back yard does not get a lot of sun and the
water has always stayed clear. After 5 years I have never had to drain
& power wash the pond. Each rear I climb in and dig the rocks away to
check in several spots to see if any Mum is accumulating - Nil.
I am lucky I suspect to not get a lot of deciduous leaves in the pond.
The evergreen leaves get trapped by the skimmer before they can sink.

Anyway my pets seem to like their environment and it has been low
maintenance for me. Most of the problems I have had with the pond is
keeping the raccoon away.

Cheers.


~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:
Regardless that your son-in-law doesn't work for Aquascape now, this design
is #1 because of great marketing and people seeing the beauty and not
realizing the high maintenance needed. My club informs people that they
MUST do the yearly recommended maintenance as they'll soon have a cesspool
with this design. If draining and power washing their pond yearly isn't
appealing, come on over to the AKCA way of doing it. They've been doing and
giving advice far, far longer than the Aquascape design has been in play.

Derek Broughton wrote:

Care to take a survey? From many years on this group, I can assure you that
most of the regulars here do _not_ have rocks or gravel on the bottom.
Most of the people who ever did, rip it out.

I took the gravel out of my pond only last week. I left a very small
amount in just to amuse the fish with something to mouth at and in the
process help swirl the bottom. This morning the water has never looked
clearer, the muck is now going to the filter where it's supposed to be
and not trapped in the gravel.

--
Andy

~ jan JJsPond. us wrote:
Incorrect. A wax toilet base seal has only momentary water flow
through
it when you flush the toilet. There is thousands of pounds of water
weight (pressure) sitting on top of the seal, constantly expanding
and
shrinking as the temperature changes in your pond. This expansion
and
contraction will result in a leak in the bottom drain fitting to
pond
liner connection over time and make your life complicated.

And just how do you think they've managed all these year with bottom
drains
in swimming pools that are of the liner type?

They were installed by professional crews that are properly trained.
Not by someone who wants a pond in their backyard and buys the
components and tries to build one themselves. You can only cut a hole
in a perfectly good liner ONCE. Not a practice I would advise to just
anyone. If you screw it up the project is done.


This is not true. Even with a perfectly operating bottom drain you
WILL
get an accumulation of muck and debris. That is unless you have NO
gravel or rocks on the pond liner bottom.

That's why it is recommended by the AKCA and many of us here (Google
for
Rocks or Not) for not rocking a pond.

However, most people have rocks and gravel

Not rocking a pond is a creepy sterile environment. If you just want to
eliminate maintenance fine then. I for one don't like to see a liner
when I look into the water and go to great lengths to hide it. See
pictu http://www.pondkoi.com/pond_gallery_008.htm#pondpic


Now this is where you are just plain inexperienced. Most people do
not have
rocks, and many who did, don't have them now.

You need to perform spring and fall
maintenance. (Start-up and Winterization)

Without rocks, with a bottom drain, there is no needed for such
muscle
straining work in the spring or winter. The work is only dealing with
the
filter.

It is very easy to put your fish in a kiddie pool for a few hours while
you drain your pond, rent a power washer (or buy one they are not that
expensive) and spray the rocks and gravel, then suck out the muck. A
very easy task that just needs to be done in the spring anyway.

1. I am not a marketing rep. I am a 55 year old retired engineer
from
the Federal Aviation Administration. I built the website for my
daughter and son-in-law at www.pondkoi.com.

You are representing a company (family owned) that deals in ponds,
are you
not?

I am not an employed marketing rep. I am a person who builds websites
and just happened to build one for my family members. Last I checked my
freedom to exchange topical information was still intact.


Regardless that your son-in-law doesn't work for Aquascape now, this
design
is #1 because of great marketing and people seeing the beauty and not
realizing the high maintenance needed. My club informs people that
they
MUST do the yearly recommended maintenance as they'll soon have a
cesspool
with this design. If draining and power washing their pond yearly
isn't
appealing, come on over to the AKCA way of doing it. They've been
doing and
giving advice far, far longer than the Aquascape design has been in
play.

You club is a good thing. You can gather people with diverse opinions
and share information. It is nice that you have a group of people to
network with. If your goal is to have NO pond structure maintenance
then you are on track. But you sacrifice the natural look of a gravel
and rocked in pond.


One thing I will say about AS, they have assimilated a lot more
people into
ponders, and this is a very good thing.

Congratulations on your first grandchild. I'm hoping my recently
married son will wait awhile (no matter how much I'd like one), as
he's in
the Army, based at Ft.Hood and has already done a year in Iraq. ~
jan


Thanks for the congrats. I applaud your son for his service to his
country and wish you and him well.

wrote:


~ jan JJsPond. us wrote:

And just how do you think they've managed all these year with
bottom drains in swimming pools that are of the liner type?

They were installed by professional crews that are properly trained.
Not by someone who wants a pond in their backyard and buys the
components and tries to build one themselves. You can only cut a hole
in a perfectly good liner ONCE. Not a practice I would advise to just
anyone. If you screw it up the project is done.

Not so. Seam tape works great. Plus, EPDM makes for better seals than
swimming pool PVC anyway.

Not rocking a pond is a creepy sterile environment.

Do you even _have_ a pond? Once you've got the plants established, and a
good coat of fuzzy algae on the liner, you can't tell whether there's rocks
or not. It's not at all creepy, and about as far from sterile as you can
get.

Without rocks, with a bottom drain, there is no needed for
such muscle
straining work in the spring or winter. The work is only
dealing with the filter.

It is very easy to put your fish in a kiddie pool for a few hours while
you drain your pond, rent a power washer (or buy one they are not that
expensive) and spray the rocks and gravel, then suck out the muck. A
very easy task that just needs to be done in the spring anyway.

I'm sorry, but you're barking mad! (1) It's really not a good idea to
stress your fish in the spring, when their immune systems are at their
worst. (2) However easy you think it is, it's a lot more work than
cleaning out a filter - my pond: 5000 gallons; my filter: 200 (and no
important fish). (3) I've never have the kind of muck in my pond that
requires such trouble, anyway.

I am not an employed marketing rep. I am a person who builds websites
and just happened to build one for my family members. Last I checked my
freedom to exchange topical information was still intact.

Whatever your title, you're acting as a marketing rep, and spreading bad
advice to boot.

If your goal is to have NO pond structure maintenance
then you are on track. But you sacrifice the natural look of a gravel
and rocked in pond.

I never built a pond so that I could look at its bottom. It's the stuff
between there and the water surface that's worth looking at.
--
derek

Hi Jan:
I know from past conversation that you really dont like ponds with rocks
in.

It's not that I don't like ponds w/rock. I think they are beautiful
actually, but I know what a headache and heartache they can be more often
than not. There are exceptions to every rule, such as yours. What kind of
fish do you keep in yours? ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

They were installed by professional crews that are properly trained.

Well I guess the majority of our club members must have been professional
pool builders in past lives, as I've yet to hear of a bottom drain leaking.
;-)

In fact, the Demo Pond, all build by volunteers with only one person (me)
who had put in a pond involved, somehow managed to put in a bottom drain &
skimmer that doesn't leak. After that experience I figure it couldn't be
that easy to mess up, considering I hadn't even put a bottom drain thru the
liner myself at that time.

Not rocking a pond is a creepy sterile environment.

If you saw my pond you'd know it was anything but creepy, imho.

I don't know if Roy is still reading this thread, but if he is, Roy do you
have a link to the picture of the pond in koiphen that was covered with
algae that made the pond look like it was lined with sod? Absolutely
beautiful green like grass. What we should all strive for, rocks or not.

It is very easy to put your fish in a kiddie pool for a few hours while
you drain your pond, rent a power washer (or buy one they are not that
expensive) and spray the rocks and gravel, then suck out the muck. A
very easy task that just needs to be done in the spring anyway.

So you've personally done this? How many times?

If your goal is to have NO pond structure maintenance
then you are on track. But you sacrifice the natural look of a gravel
and rocked in pond.

Our goals is to keep people from filling them in out of frustration because
of sick fish and poor water quality, which has nothing to do with the
rocks. The rocks just make it harder to turn the situation around once it
goes south.

If I could keep people from over loading with fish, screen the ponds so no
leaves fall in, and beg mother nature for no more dust storms. AS ponds
might be a bigger hit in this area. ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

On 7 May 2005 01:13:48 -0700, wrote:


Derek Broughton wrote:
wrote:

Don't install bottom drains.

Why? 2 main reasons:

1. You have to cut a hole in the bottom of the rubber liner to fit
the
drain pipe. No matter how well you plan this and use the top of the
line sealants, it will leak. Maybe not in the first 2-3 years, but
no
matter the claims of sealants, they expand and shrink as the
temperature changes and do not change exactly at the same rate as
the
rubber liner. Over time this connection fails.

Do you have _any_ evidence to back this up? Consider that the
average
toilet seal, generally a much weaker seal than a good gasket in the
bottom
of a pond, can last thirty years...

If you are referring to the wax ring on the toilet base, that is a
static gravity seal and not subject to constant pressure. There is
nothing more aggravating that to drain your pond for spring or fall
cleanout and find that a leaking bottom drain has saturated the earth
with water. That water then causes the rubber liner to have huge
pockets of trapped water that bubble up the liner and cannot be fixed
without pulling the entire liner out and pumping the water out of the
hole and resealing the drain and fitting the liner again.

Actually, what you're describing... water pushing up the liner, is
nearly ALWAYS groundwater with hydrostatic pressure. In extreme
cases, this Naturally occuring build up of whater can actually LIFT a
solid pond (like those large plastic types) up out of the ground.
There are valves you can install in liners to equalize this pressure.

DO NOT USE BOTTOM DRAINS WITH LINERS

You need to learn what you're talking about.

~ jan JJsPond. us wrote:
Hi Jan:
I know from past conversation that you really dont like ponds with
rocks
in.

It's not that I don't like ponds w/rock. I think they are beautiful
actually, but I know what a headache and heartache they can be more
often
than not. There are exceptions to every rule, such as yours. What
kind of
fish do you keep in yours? ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~


Jan,

I just moved in the last 30 days so at the present time I do not have a
pond. However, I am just about ready to break ground for a new 20'x 40'
breeding pond that is going to be especially set up for breeding
domestic championship quality Kohaku's. I want to offer in the next 2
years Japanese quality Koi at reasonable prices. I have a 40'x 80' pole
barn that is going to house 4 above ground tanks for continued growth
and feeding year round. I plan on these acually having bottom drains
and a centralized bead filtering system with UV protection from
disease. Of course these are not going to be rubber lined, but concrete
with protective coating. We have a very nice plan to offer some nice
fish in the future. I may even build another 2 or 3 in ground ponds
outside and breed other types of Koi.

In hindsight I should have changed the topic of my post to "Bottom
Drains, Perhaps Not?" but hindsight is fantastic.

I just know that when I look at a pond outside that has proper
maintenance and is rock and gravel that I like the way it looks much
better than without.

Happy Ponding

Paul
www.pondkoi.com

"Interesting." Good luck with the project and hope you post your
experiences with it. ~ jan

Jan,

I just moved in the last 30 days so at the present time I do not have a
pond. However, I am just about ready to break ground for a new 20'x 40'
breeding pond that is going to be especially set up for breeding
domestic championship quality Kohaku's. I want to offer in the next 2
years Japanese quality Koi at reasonable prices. I have a 40'x 80' pole
barn that is going to house 4 above ground tanks for continued growth
and feeding year round. I plan on these acually having bottom drains
and a centralized bead filtering system with UV protection from
disease. Of course these are not going to be rubber lined, but concrete
with protective coating. We have a very nice plan to offer some nice
fish in the future. I may even build another 2 or 3 in ground ponds
outside and breed other types of Koi.

In hindsight I should have changed the topic of my post to "Bottom
Drains, Perhaps Not?" but hindsight is fantastic.

I just know that when I look at a pond outside that has proper
maintenance and is rock and gravel that I like the way it looks much
better than without.

Happy Ponding

Paul
www.pondkoi.com

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~