Help, Newbie problems.

Richard Sexton wrote:
Flavobacterium IS rather common.


You've identified the pathogen from a culture have you? Or are you
guessing based on the symptoms?

You might be interested in this months TFH column - The Skeptical
Aquarist.

As aquarists we are very very guilty of overmedicating, using the
wrng medication and using it improperly. And this is making a
dangerous mess.

Guessing based on symptoms, as are you. I've arrived at a different
conclusion. Neither of us has access to a scraping from these fish.
OP is describing rapidly spreading whitish patches and fuzz, a high
rate of contagion, and both internal and external infections. An
antifungal should have slowed fungus secondary to velet and kept it
from jumping to other fish.

Agreed that aquarists tend to overmedicate.

Check out http://www.flippersandfins.net/flexibacter.htm. The author,
Dr. Barb, is an MD who has decided to specialize in fish health as well
as human.

I will have to pick up a copy of this month's TFH.

In article .com,
Altum wrote:
Richard Sexton wrote:
Flavobacterium IS rather common.


You've identified the pathogen from a culture have you? Or are you
guessing based on the symptoms?

You might be interested in this months TFH column - The Skeptical
Aquarist.

As aquarists we are very very guilty of overmedicating, using the
wrng medication and using it improperly. And this is making a
dangerous mess.

Guessing based on symptoms, as are you. I've arrived at a different
conclusion. Neither of us has access to a scraping from these fish.
OP is describing rapidly spreading whitish patches and fuzz, a high
rate of contagion, and both internal and external infections. An
antifungal should have slowed fungus secondary to velet and kept it
from jumping to other fish.

Agreed that aquarists tend to overmedicate.

Check out http://www.flippersandfins.net/flexibacter.htm. The author,
Dr. Barb, is an MD who has decided to specialize in fish health as well
as human.

I dunno. It makes me a bit nervous that her page describes treatments
different than the references she cites which are certainly more
authoritative. Plus the temptation is so great to say "Oh! flex"
and dump in antibiotics to cure it. Real columnaris is difficult
to cure - the treatment is long. The chronic form that is, the
acute form will wipe out 100% of the fish in 3 days.

It's cause sby high ammonia, low oxygen, dirty water. Acriflavine
would be the drug of choice in everyody's opinion except the above
mentioned page who says it "may" work. Bah.

The Platy on the cover of Handbook of Fish Diseases has columnaris. Looking
at the book is free in a store. :-)

As with all fish diseases, salt and MASSIVE water changes will probably
do more good than anything that comes in a gelcap.

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

"Richard Sexton" wrote in message
...
In article .com,
Altum wrote:
Richard Sexton wrote:
Flavobacterium IS rather common.


You've identified the pathogen from a culture have you? Or are you
guessing based on the symptoms?

You might be interested in this months TFH column - The Skeptical
Aquarist.

As aquarists we are very very guilty of overmedicating, using the
wrng medication and using it improperly. And this is making a
dangerous mess.

Guessing based on symptoms, as are you. I've arrived at a different
conclusion. Neither of us has access to a scraping from these fish.
OP is describing rapidly spreading whitish patches and fuzz, a high
rate of contagion, and both internal and external infections. An
antifungal should have slowed fungus secondary to velet and kept it
from jumping to other fish.

Agreed that aquarists tend to overmedicate.

Check out http://www.flippersandfins.net/flexibacter.htm. The author,
Dr. Barb, is an MD who has decided to specialize in fish health as well
as human.

I dunno. It makes me a bit nervous that her page describes treatments
different than the references she cites which are certainly more
authoritative. Plus the temptation is so great to say "Oh! flex"
and dump in antibiotics to cure it. Real columnaris is difficult
to cure - the treatment is long. The chronic form that is, the
acute form will wipe out 100% of the fish in 3 days.

It's cause sby high ammonia, low oxygen, dirty water. Acriflavine
would be the drug of choice in everyody's opinion except the above
mentioned page who says it "may" work. Bah.

The Platy on the cover of Handbook of Fish Diseases has columnaris.
Looking
at the book is free in a store. :-)

As with all fish diseases, salt and MASSIVE water changes will probably
do more good than anything that comes in a gelcap.

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org


Regarding massive freshwater changes for disease treatments (which I
agree with), maybe there is a need for a real fish hospital (recovery
tank). Think of an 'O' shaped aquarium (top view), with 6 chamber (like
a pie chart). Install fish i) in one small section (1g) with egg-crate
sides. Water would continuously be pumped around to the other chambers,
which would be ii) bio-wheel iii) UV stage, iv) plant scrubbers
(something like Hornwort under high light), v)carbon/zeolite stage (could
have water monitoring and meds added here too) and then vi) diatomaceous
filtration.

I wonder if that would work? My sequence and stages would probably need
a 'bit' of fine-tuning (complete redesign? ;~).
--
www.NetMax.tk

Regarding massive freshwater changes for disease treatments (which I
agree with), maybe there is a need for a real fish hospital (recovery
tank). Think of an 'O' shaped aquarium (top view), with 6 chamber (like
a pie chart). Install fish i) in one small section (1g) with egg-crate
sides. Water would continuously be pumped around to the other chambers,
which would be ii) bio-wheel iii) UV stage, iv) plant scrubbers
(something like Hornwort under high light), v)carbon/zeolite stage (could
have water monitoring and meds added here too) and then vi) diatomaceous
filtration.

I wonder if that would work? My sequence and stages would probably need
a 'bit' of fine-tuning (complete redesign? ;~).

I forgot where, but I read recently that massive waer changes by themselves
(like 4 80%-90% a day) will cure almost anything. It by by a fish pathologist.

(Salt was the other thing he mentioned would cure almost anything)

Water changes by themselves are cited in Untergasser's book as one of about 5
treatments for ick.

The diatom filter alone will cure ick, or any pathogen that's bigger than
1 micron and has a free swimming stage.

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

While I applaud your efforts to treat fish without the use of
antibiotics I think there are times when they are useful. Flex is very
common and I have cured what I believe to be flex several times using a
combination of Maracyn and Maracyn-Two. Curing it is not difficult and
is more frequently successful then not. Allowing flex to go untreated
is nearly always fatal. (Ask me how I know)

Frequent water changes are important to fix whatever was stressing the
fish but that alone won't cure them. Ultimately it comes down to their
immune systems and a boost from the antibiotics. Using them responsably
is the key.

In article . com,
IDzine01 wrote:
While I applaud your efforts to treat fish without the use of
antibiotics I think there are times when they are useful. Flex is very
common and I have cured what I believe to be flex several times using a
combination of Maracyn and Maracyn-Two. Curing it is not difficult and
is more frequently successful then not. Allowing flex to go untreated
is nearly always fatal. (Ask me how I know)

Maracyn is ertythromyacin and affects gram positive bacteria. M2
is neomyacin and affects gram negative bacteria. Untergasser
states the only treatments are acriflavine and tetracycline which
is a gram negative specific antbiotic.

In theory the maracyn does nothing. The M2 is doing all the work.

But, dammit Jim, I'm a computer programmr not a doctor. Take this
all with a grain of salt (per gallon).


--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

The active ingredient in M2 is Minocycline. Is that the same as
Neomyacyn?

Don't sweat it. I'm not a doctor either. For some reason I, like you,
enjoy reading about this stuff. It's geeky, I know.

In article . com,
IDzine01 wrote:
The active ingredient in M2 is Minocycline. Is that the same as
Neomyacyn?

Nope. Huh. Either they changed it or I just plain got it wrong. I think th
last time I had any of that stuff was about 1978.

I won't use antibiotics any more, instead there are a bunch of substitutes:

http://aquaria.net/articles/meds/antibiotics/


--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

"Richard Sexton" wrote in message
...
In article . com,
IDzine01 wrote:
The active ingredient in M2 is Minocycline. Is that the same as
Neomyacyn?

Nope. Huh. Either they changed it or I just plain got it wrong. I think
th
last time I had any of that stuff was about 1978.

I won't use antibiotics any more, instead there are a bunch of
substitutes:

http://aquaria.net/articles/meds/antibiotics/


--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org


FYI, euthromycine, although it is gram positive, it will work to an
extent on gram negative bacteria. When I enquired about this, I was told
that the definition (gram positive and gram negative) was not 100%
selective. Wide spectrum A/B is just that, and gram positive A/B is
*mostly* gram positive effective.
--
www.NetMax.tk

FYI, euthromycine, although it is gram positive, it will work to an
extent on gram negative bacteria. When I enquired about this, I was told
that the definition (gram positive and gram negative) was not 100%
selective. Wide spectrum A/B is just that, and gram positive A/B is
*mostly* gram positive effective.

Fair enough. "gram" is a stain; soe bacteria are stained by it some aren't;
I alwsys thought that was a kinda broad generalization.

I still won't use antibiotics though :-

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net