Sick koi and need advice (with pics)

"scs0" wrote in message
oups.com...
From what I've gathered my koi's problem may be:

Carp pox (aka Lymphocystis)

Since it's lived so long it's probably pox. You can also check
www.koivet.com for more information on koi diseases.

Or
Koi herpes


I'm unclear on whether or not Carp Pox and Koi Herpes are different
diseases or just the same name for the same thing.

I don't want to kill the fish, but it certainly sounds like I should
isolate this one.

That's what I did with mine because of her beauty, but the pox always came
back. I finally decided she had to go.

That's a bit of a pain considering the size these
fish are getting to, but one thing I learned is that these bigger fish
are much lazier and easier to catch than the impossible-to-catch
younger ones. I definitely don't want to contact the Department of
Agriculture. Government and environmental issues are a scary thing to
mix and I've heard the horror stories. I'd probably end up with 100
euthanized koi and a demolished pond. I'll be lucky if they don't
find a way to condemn my property altogether!

Then separate the fish until you decide what to do with it. My fish was with
the others for months and none of them were infected with the pox. It
doesn't spread like wildfire. Even her fry were not infected. I kept a
healthy fry from her to replace her. It will be 2 years old in April and no
pox.

I would like to get out of this without the death of this fish. I've
never really liked its color patterns too much but that's a mean
reason to settle for its euthanization!

Don't worry; the last thing I'll do is release this fish into the wild
or any other body of water for that matter.
--
ZB....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Troll free pond and fish Forum:
http://www.karlsforums.com/forums/fo...ay.php?fid=104
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*

How long a fish lives is irrevelant , and has no bearing on it. A fish
can catch either disease at any age, however its more likely to catch
one before the other at a younger age. One goes away with temps, but
is most likely to reoccur. That fish is totally stressed out as is
easily seen by the read streaks in tail. Since that warty looking mass
of flesh was not there earlier that pretty well leave sout the once
disease, along with the patch or white that refuses to go away,
somehow I am just lead to belive that fish is a total mess and is
doomed.... Your right, it needs to be quarantined, and not dumped in
someone else pond to get it out of sight.

Do a search on both deseases, for your self without any intervention
by opposed parties here on the usenet groups. If you come up with more
questions ask. As no one wants to loose a fish either, it is not hard
to get into a no win situation with not really knowing what is wrong
with the fish, and two, not having professionals around to diagnose it
properly and that entails a patholgy type test, not a simple visual
look see in a picture. Then comes expense to cure if its possible to
cure the problem and a means to do it. Is it really worth while to QT
a fish long term or is it better overall to bite the bullet and
euthanize. As good as your images are, its hard to say one way or the
other and any one reallay saying its this or that for sure is
guessing. Not the wisest choice of info to take. I threw a post on a
wellknown koi forum, not wanting to have a simple or easy diagnosis
go unchecked if there is such a thing, and as much as I do not want to
take away potential posters from this group I am looking at the ebst
interests for your fish overall. In anothe rpost I will make entitled
Consensus of sick Koi, you can read what replies have been made and
make your own decison, but just remember, only 100% real way to know
is a pathological test for the type of virus....no wild a$$ guess is
effective and its a shot in the dark. If you choose that decision or
advice is yoiur option, and no one is gonna find fault wityh you for
doing what you think is right, wellthat is except forone person here
who advises to toss it ina farm pond.
Let me gopy paste the replies and make that post and then you can see
yet more opinions some of which are made by professionals in the world
of KOI.

Regards

On 14 Feb 2007 11:17:56 -0800, "scs0" wrote:

From what I've gathered my koi's problem may be:

Carp pox (aka Lymphocystis)
Or
Koi herpes


I'm unclear on whether or not Carp Pox and Koi Herpes are different
diseases or just the same name for the same thing.

I don't want to kill the fish, but it certainly sounds like I should
isolate this one. That's a bit of a pain considering the size these
fish are getting to, but one thing I learned is that these bigger fish
are much lazier and easier to catch than the impossible-to-catch
younger ones. I definitely don't want to contact the Department of
Agriculture. Government and environmental issues are a scary thing to
mix and I've heard the horror stories. I'd probably end up with 100
euthanized koi and a demolished pond. I'll be lucky if they don't
find a way to condemn my property altogether!


I would like to get out of this without the death of this fish. I've
never really liked its color patterns too much but that's a mean
reason to settle for its euthanization!

Don't worry; the last thing I'll do is release this fish into the wild
or any other body of water for that matter.



-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!

Totally assinine information given by an obnoxious individual that
thinks they know all but really knows very little. This person is
notorious for passing out erroneous info and any info given by her
should not be trusted to even be inline with what was asked or
relavant to the situation. In most folks opinions its better to do
without informaiton by this person than to chance usuing any of it.

On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 14:20:12 -0600, Zëbulon
wrote:


"scs0" wrote in message
legroups.com...
From what I've gathered my koi's problem may be:

Carp pox (aka Lymphocystis)

Since it's lived so long it's probably pox. You can also check
www.koivet.com for more information on koi diseases.

Or
Koi herpes


I'm unclear on whether or not Carp Pox and Koi Herpes are different
diseases or just the same name for the same thing.

I don't want to kill the fish, but it certainly sounds like I should
isolate this one.

That's what I did with mine because of her beauty, but the pox always came
back. I finally decided she had to go.


Yea put the fish insoomeone elses pond and let them catch the
aftereffects...Really nice compasionate and reliable individual is
what yu are CArol....I assume its safe to say you would push your ownn
mother out ino the streets if she became a leper so you would not
have to deal with it. Your a real gem carol one of a kind!

That's a bit of a pain considering the size these
fish are getting to, but one thing I learned is that these bigger fish
are much lazier and easier to catch than the impossible-to-catch
younger ones. I definitely don't want to contact the Department of
Agriculture. Government and environmental issues are a scary thing to
mix and I've heard the horror stories. I'd probably end up with 100
euthanized koi and a demolished pond. I'll be lucky if they don't
find a way to condemn my property altogether!

Then separate the fish until you decide what to do with it. My fish was with
the others for months and none of them were infected with the pox. It
doesn't spread like wildfire. Even her fry were not infected. I kept a
healthy fry from her to replace her. It will be 2 years old in April and no
pox.

I would like to get out of this without the death of this fish. I've
never really liked its color patterns too much but that's a mean
reason to settle for its euthanization!

Don't worry; the last thing I'll do is release this fish into the wild
or any other body of water for that matter.



-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!

"Zëbulon"

The dumping of Koi and Goldfish is illegal over here even if they are
healthy....

That doesn't not apply to where I or the person who recommended the
illegal killing of protected birds live - the USA.



Releasing (dumping) non native fish in the U.S . is most certainly illegal
and punishable by a hefty fine.
Knowingly releasing diseased fish is a criminal act punishable by a fine
plus possible jail time.
Ecosystems have been devastated by the introduction of non-native species
and diseases to which native species have have no immunity.

Here is the copy pastes of opinions and advice of some others in a
well run troll free forum that has lots of professional koi health
practitioners known in the world of KOI.....Names of posters have been
X'd out but they are professionals and not quacks. I am not saying
that there is not folks in the rec.p[onds group that are not capable,
but right now participation due to trolls and folks like carol Gulley
aka Zebulon makes conducting anything almost impossible to help people
out. Best of luck to you.
==================================

The tail looks like koi pox and the fish is very stressed as you can
see from the red streaks in the tail.

The second pic isn't clear. It could have a thicker slime coat causing
the whitish film. Have they been tested for parasites?

What's the water temp and pH and are they stable?


xxxxxx
Advanced Member


Group: Moderator
Posts: 2,287
Joined: 2-June 06
From: Eastern (Thumb) Panhandle of Wild Wonderful West Virginia
Member No.: 28



Hmmm. I don't know xxxxx....that lesion on the tail sure looks more
like a tumor or lymphocystis. See the texutre of it and the color? Pox
is usually just opaque and flatter. Seems to be more of this thing
going on......viral....and hard to "cure".
What kind of water temperature is this fish kept in? Pox will clear in
warmer water usually.
Most specimens(not all) I have seen with this flat wide whitened
(viral poxy type) area have not been kept in good water.
If it is not getting smaller (especially if they live in an area where
the temperature changes with the seasons) but bigger, I would expect
lymphocystis or cancer.

This post has been edited byxxxx: Yesterday, 11:49 PM
===================================

xxxxxxx
Advanced Member


Group: Super Moderator
Posts: 4,355
Joined: 2-June 06
From: Lugoff, SC
Member No.: 21

I have to agree with xxx.....the tail looks like a cancerous growth
to me.


xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Advanced Member
Group: Moderator
Posts: 527
Joined: 4-June 06
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia
Member No.: 95



I also agree with xxxxx and xxxxx, that the taol looks like a
tumorous growth.

From the very few cases I've seen of on freshwater fish and the
numerous ones that I've seen on sal****er fish ....Lymphocystis
usually just forms a whitish cauliflower like growth, with out the red
inflammation.

The dorsal spot is probably pox but but it reminds me of Hikui, but
that usually just shows up on beni, so I'm not sure what it is\


xxxx


xxxxxxxxx
Advanced Member
Group: Super Moderator
Posts: 4,972
Joined: 2-June 06
From: Covington, Louisiana
Member No.: 14
================================


Maybe I had wrong advice with my fish. Years ago, I had a fish with a
lesion that looked just like that only at the joint of the pec fin. It
as also red. I was told it was koi pox and it would come and go with
temp changes. I could never figure out why the lump never went away.
Sorry for the wrong advice.


xxxxxxxxx


Advanced Member
Group: Moderator
Posts: 527
Joined: 4-June 06
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia
Member No.: 95



xxxxx, not all that wrong............ if you look at the edge of the
fin those growths are pox..............overall this fish has problems

xx

========================================
xxxxxxxx



Advanced Member
Group: Super Moderator
Posts: 4,972
Joined: 2-June 06
From: Covington, Louisiana
Member No.: 14



Thanks, xxx

So the main difference in telling a tumor from pox is the red veining?
Does location have anything to do with it?


xxxxxxxxxxx
===============================================



Advanced Member






xxxxx

Advanced Member


Group: Moderator
Posts: 527
Joined: 4-June 06
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia
Member No.: 95



QUOTE(xxxxxx @ Feb 14 2007, 09:56 AM)
Thanks,xxxxxxxxxx

So the main difference in telling a tumor from pox is the red veining?
Does location have anything to do with it?



1st off unless a path lab did some testing, we're giving opinions
here, not fact........If you look at the fin edge and then the growth
they really do not like alike. The growth has very definate edges and
the growths at the fin edges kind of blend back into the fin. Both
have some veining and inflammation. If you blow the second pic up the
anal fin also has some growth on it...overall this fish is a mess

xxxxxxx
=====================


-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!

Well unfortunately that law does not apply to Queen Bee Carol Gulley,
She makes the rules up that she follows as she goes along to suit her
needs. She is immune from wrong doings as is plainly seen in the last
round of troll posts made in the various aquaria and reef groups under
my user name.............



On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 21:24:41 GMT, "Killjoy" wrote:


"Zëbulon"

The dumping of Koi and Goldfish is illegal over here even if they are
healthy....

That doesn't not apply to where I or the person who recommended the
illegal killing of protected birds live - the USA.



Releasing (dumping) non native fish in the U.S . is most certainly illegal
and punishable by a hefty fine.
Knowingly releasing diseased fish is a criminal act punishable by a fine
plus possible jail time.
Ecosystems have been devastated by the introduction of non-native species
and diseases to which native species have have no immunity.




-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!

"Killjoy" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Zëbulon"

The dumping of Koi and Goldfish is illegal over here even if they are
healthy....

That doesn't not apply to where I or the person who recommended the
illegal killing of protected birds live - the USA.



Releasing (dumping) non native fish in the U.S . is most certainly
illegal and punishable by a hefty fine.

Of course it is. That's why they go to a 3000g farm pond. No different
than keeping them in my pond.

Knowingly releasing diseased fish is a criminal act punishable by a fine
plus possible jail time.

Of course. Is is also illegal to keep them in your own pond? Is that a
criminal act? What the difference between our ornamental ponds and farm
stock ponds? Why is it legal to keep them in an ornamental pond and not a
stock pond?

Ecosystems

A man-made stock pond is an ecosystem but an ornamental pond isn't?

have been devastated by the introduction of non-native species
and diseases to which native species have have no immunity.

That's why no one dumps them in the rivers or lake, at least to my
knowledge. :-)))
--
ZB....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Troll free pond and fish Forum:
http://www.karlsforums.com/forums/fo...ay.php?fid=104
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*

"Zëbulon"

Releasing (dumping) non native fish in the U.S . is most certainly
illegal and punishable by a hefty fine.

Of course it is. That's why they go to a 3000g farm pond. No different
than keeping them in my pond.

Even farm ponds frequently contain native species which could be adversely
affected . Your pond only contains ornamental fish.
Jesus you are clueless.

Well said



On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 22:03:28 GMT, "Killjoy" wrote:


"Zëbulon"

Releasing (dumping) non native fish in the U.S . is most certainly
illegal and punishable by a hefty fine.

Of course it is. That's why they go to a 3000g farm pond. No different
than keeping them in my pond.

Even farm ponds frequently contain native species which could be adversely
affected . Your pond only contains ornamental fish.
Jesus you are clueless.








-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!

"Killjoy" wrote in message
k.net...

"Zëbulon"

Releasing (dumping) non native fish in the U.S . is most certainly
illegal and punishable by a hefty fine.

Of course it is. That's why they go to a 3000g farm pond. No different
than keeping them in my pond.

Even farm ponds frequently contain native species

Even our ornamental ponds frequently contain native species as well.

which could be adversely
affected .

As they would be in our ornamental ponds. Do you suggest we outlaw koi and
goldfish keeping because native species are often found in our ornamental
ponds?

Your pond only contains ornamental fish.
Jesus you are clueless.

No it doesn't. I've found sunfish fry in my 2000g pond.

Jesus, Mary and Joseph are YOU clueless.........
--
ZB....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*