UV or not

"George Patterson" wrote in message news:_cFGh.558$3i.295@trnddc01...
Pszemol wrote:

Could you give me more details?

I started keeping marine fish in 1975. Those were the days of the undergravel
filter, and the use of powerheads was hailed as a great advance by my friends

I am afraid we misunderstood each other.
I was hoping to hear about details of your scientific experiment and
you are giving me details on how you kept your fishtanks...
This is not what I was asking about.

To really tell how UV influences fish/ich you need to have controlled
group of fish without UV in the tank and expose both groups of fish
with the same amounts of parasite...

During the experiment you would need to actually measure water
flow through the UV lamp estimating UV exposure time for the
disease organisms have some detailed data on fish infections
with real dates and real numbers...

If you do not have all this than your statements are based on anegdotal
evidence or no evidence at all rather wishfull thinking instead.

And it really does not matter if you have tanks for 25 years or 2 months.
Scientific method is much more important in judging how UV affects ich.

Your about a dumbass there Pszemol....don;t trust a ****ing individual
with out a lot of red tape and paper trails huh, why are you so
****ing paranoid there dude...what a moron.........just like hei hero
Wayne of Waynes Dead Pets Hope ya do not mind me recomending your
email addy....I have a few friends in need of a few addys for an
experiiment. Did I tell yuou that your a moron there Pszemol? Well
if not , you certainly are!



..On Mon, 5 Mar 2007 09:19:37 -0600, "Pszemol"
wrote:

"George Patterson" wrote in message news:_cFGh.558$3i.295@trnddc01...
Pszemol wrote:

Could you give me more details?

I started keeping marine fish in 1975. Those were the days of the undergravel
filter, and the use of powerheads was hailed as a great advance by my friends

I am afraid we misunderstood each other.
I was hoping to hear about details of your scientific experiment and
you are giving me details on how you kept your fishtanks...
This is not what I was asking about.

To really tell how UV influences fish/ich you need to have controlled
group of fish without UV in the tank and expose both groups of fish
with the same amounts of parasite...

During the experiment you would need to actually measure water
flow through the UV lamp estimating UV exposure time for the
disease organisms have some detailed data on fish infections
with real dates and real numbers...

If you do not have all this than your statements are based on anegdotal
evidence or no evidence at all rather wishfull thinking instead.

And it really does not matter if you have tanks for 25 years or 2 months.
Scientific method is much more important in judging how UV affects ich.



-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!

nntp.nildram.co.uk wrote:
i do have a problem with green algae but i have hermit crabs and turbo
snails along with a yellow tang. I've been thinking of adding a UV
sterilizer to my system but would this starve the snails and crabs.
The tang is ok for other foods but the little hemits and snails seem to
have no other source of food.

Robin


Turbo's and hermits are of limited use for green algae.

Better bet is get some cerith, or even better, nassarius snails, and
perhaps a conch or two.

Wayne Sallee wrote:
With a reef tank, I would not be trying to keep sunlight from going in
the tank.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets


Yukon wrote on 3/4/2007 8:21 AM:

sunlight entering the tank, water issues - to name a few. All tanks
have algae.
Maybe it's normal algae. You have to clean algae off your glass.
That's normal



Indeed. Why would one turn up their nose at free light? Free light with
darn good PAR, at that?

Actually Pszemol, you left out a lot of important
detail about how to properly do a scientific study.

You also need to do the following.

Make sure the fish are of the exact same age.
Make sure the fish are of the exact same size.
Make sure the fish are of the exact same mas.
Water of the same exact temp +- .00001 degree.
Tank size of the exact gallons
Tank size of the exact dimensions.
Rock, sand, gravel of the exact same mas.
Rock, sand, gravel of the exact same size
Position in the room of the exact same location.
Sound in the tanks to be the exact same.
Food measured out to the .00001 kilograms.
Lighting measured daily to make sure each tank is
getting exactly the same amount.
At least 10 tanks of the control.
At least 10 tanks of the test.
Run the test each year for 10 years.
Run the test at different barometric pressures.

But the reality is that what George presented is
sufficient to show what he has stated, and it agrees
with the results that many other people have seen.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets


Pszemol wrote on 3/5/2007 10:19 AM:
"George Patterson" wrote in message
news:_cFGh.558$3i.295@trnddc01...
Pszemol wrote:

Could you give me more details?

I started keeping marine fish in 1975. Those were the days of the
undergravel filter, and the use of powerheads was hailed as a great
advance by my friends

I am afraid we misunderstood each other.
I was hoping to hear about details of your scientific experiment and
you are giving me details on how you kept your fishtanks...
This is not what I was asking about.

To really tell how UV influences fish/ich you need to have controlled
group of fish without UV in the tank and expose both groups of fish
with the same amounts of parasite...

During the experiment you would need to actually measure water
flow through the UV lamp estimating UV exposure time for the
disease organisms have some detailed data on fish infections
with real dates and real numbers...

If you do not have all this than your statements are based on anegdotal
evidence or no evidence at all rather wishfull thinking instead.

And it really does not matter if you have tanks for 25 years or 2 months.
Scientific method is much more important in judging how UV affects ich.

Hermits are useful.
Also if the nutrient levels are dropped, then the
algae is weaker, and then things will eat it more.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets


Add Homonym wrote on 3/5/2007 10:46 AM:
nntp.nildram.co.uk wrote:
i do have a problem with green algae but i have hermit crabs and turbo
snails along with a yellow tang. I've been thinking of adding a UV
sterilizer to my system but would this starve the snails and crabs.
The tang is ok for other foods but the little hemits and snails seem
to have no other source of food.

Robin


Turbo's and hermits are of limited use for green algae.

Better bet is get some cerith, or even better, nassarius snails, and
perhaps a conch or two.

It also amazes me how many so called scientific
studies are so poorly done. They use big words, they
strut their stuff, but make too may assumptions, and
build their tests on unproven material.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets


Wayne Sallee wrote on 3/5/2007 11:19 AM:
Actually Pszemol, you left out a lot of important detail about how to
properly do a scientific study.

You also need to do the following.

Make sure the fish are of the exact same age.
Make sure the fish are of the exact same size.
Make sure the fish are of the exact same mas.
Water of the same exact temp +- .00001 degree.
Tank size of the exact gallons
Tank size of the exact dimensions.
Rock, sand, gravel of the exact same mas.
Rock, sand, gravel of the exact same size
Position in the room of the exact same location.
Sound in the tanks to be the exact same.
Food measured out to the .00001 kilograms.
Lighting measured daily to make sure each tank is getting exactly the
same amount.
At least 10 tanks of the control.
At least 10 tanks of the test.
Run the test each year for 10 years.
Run the test at different barometric pressures.

But the reality is that what George presented is sufficient to show what
he has stated, and it agrees with the results that many other people
have seen.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets


Pszemol wrote on 3/5/2007 10:19 AM:
"George Patterson" wrote in message
news:_cFGh.558$3i.295@trnddc01...
Pszemol wrote:

Could you give me more details?

I started keeping marine fish in 1975. Those were the days of the
undergravel filter, and the use of powerheads was hailed as a great
advance by my friends

I am afraid we misunderstood each other.
I was hoping to hear about details of your scientific experiment and
you are giving me details on how you kept your fishtanks...
This is not what I was asking about.

To really tell how UV influences fish/ich you need to have controlled
group of fish without UV in the tank and expose both groups of fish
with the same amounts of parasite...

During the experiment you would need to actually measure water
flow through the UV lamp estimating UV exposure time for the
disease organisms have some detailed data on fish infections
with real dates and real numbers...

If you do not have all this than your statements are based on anegdotal
evidence or no evidence at all rather wishfull thinking instead.

And it really does not matter if you have tanks for 25 years or 2 months.
Scientific method is much more important in judging how UV affects ich.

"Wayne Sallee" wrote in message k.net...
Actually Pszemol, you left out a lot of important
detail about how to properly do a scientific study.

This was not my intend to make a complete list :-)
Just wanted to mention the most important
factors of scientific method: control group which
was missing in his 25-years experiments.

But the reality is that what George presented is
sufficient to show what he has stated, and it agrees
with the results that many other people have seen.

Maybe it is sufficient for you, but not for me :-)

"Wayne Sallee" wrote in message nk.net...
It also amazes me how many so called scientific
studies are so poorly done. They use big words, they
strut their stuff, but make too may assumptions, and
build their tests on unproven material.

I am not saying all scientific tests are well done...

I am just saying that keeping tanks for 25 years
does not prevent you from believing in MYTHS
which you cultivate with not scientific background..

Let me give you an example:
My 30 years of experience tell me that using cotton
briefs protects my ass from being bitten by a tiger.
The proof I can offer you is that for the last 30 years
of wearing my cotton briefs I was not even a single time
bitten by a tiger = white cotton briefs protected me :-)))

I hope you will understand what I am talking about.

What do you know about life cycle of the parasite
causing ich in marine fish? What kind of organism
is it? Is it prothosoan? Is is crustacian?
How strong UV exposure is REQUIRED to kill it ?
How strong UV exposure is REQUIRED to destroy
its reproductive systems ?
Is your UV lamp used the way you can guarantee
this kind of exposure time giving proper UV dosage?

You can keep fish tanks for 25 years and do not know
enough about biology, chemistry or physics to make
statement about this subject.

:-) so.... I am still waiting for a description of
scientific method used to determine influence
of UV lamp (which kind?) on ich in marine fish :-)

Wayne Sallee wrote:
Actually Pszemol, you left out a lot of important detail about how to
properly do a scientific study.

You also need to do the following.

Make sure the fish are of the exact same age.
Make sure the fish are of the exact same size.
Make sure the fish are of the exact same mas.
Water of the same exact temp +- .00001 degree.
Tank size of the exact gallons
Tank size of the exact dimensions.
Rock, sand, gravel of the exact same mas.
Rock, sand, gravel of the exact same size
Position in the room of the exact same location.
Sound in the tanks to be the exact same.
Food measured out to the .00001 kilograms.
Lighting measured daily to make sure each tank is getting exactly the
same amount.
At least 10 tanks of the control.
At least 10 tanks of the test.

snip

2 sets of 10 is way to small a sampling to be of any statistical
significance. A proper study would use several thousand tanks in each group.
A