How long in the bag

Isn't C02 a heavy gas?

It's difficult to loose out of a bag unless you turn it upside down or a
heavier substance displaces it. Not sure if this is true when combined
with water.

George

Toni wrote:
"Vissy Dartae" wrote in message
om...

"Kodiak" wrote in message

.. .

Wow, every store i've been to says to add a bit of tank water
to the bag before letting them go. Even the bags themselves
have instructions on them. The only thing they say is not to let
the bag water loose into your tank (avoid contamination from
petstore water).

I'm pretty sure that's what she means-- about the store water being
deadly if it gets into your home tank.



There is some sort of (recently recognized) chemistry problem with gas
exchange if the bag is opened after a too long shipping/traveling time.
*I do not remember the specifics of this*- but when the bag is opened all
the carbon dioxide (produced during travel time) is immediately replaced by
air/oxygen. I believe this affects the pH and ammonia levels in some
negative respect.

If I have fish shipped in I float them to equalize temps then pick them up
and put them in the q-tank. The sooner you get them out of the nasty
shipping water the better... just IMO.

I sure hope Ingrid comes back to correct me and explain further...

The following notes may help answer some shipping/receiving questions, or at
least be interesting to discuss.
The subjects are being passed from hobbyist to hobbyist so I do not know where
or when they first appeared.
====
Squirt & Dump Method

Those of you who have known John Kuhns since his invention of the product
NovAqua (marketed by Kordon) have known of his now famous "squirt and dump"
method of introducing new fishes into tanks. "Famous" because the method
has now been written about in The Complete Fishkeeper. This book, written
by Joseph S. Levine is subtitled: "everything aquarium fishes need to stay
alive, healthy and happy" is well written and belongs in every aquarist's
library, and is the first book that aquarium shops should sell to new
aquarists.

The excerpt that tells about the "squirt and dump" method is reproduced he


Adding Fish to the Tank

Traditional wisdom has it that you must float fish bags in your tank for
thirty minutes, mix bag water with tank water, and then tip the bag over
and allow the fishes to swim out on their own. I prefer, however, a radical
departure from this technique that has been successfully championed by
FISHNET member and aquacultural chemist John Kuhns. John's "dose and dump
technique," which aims to get the fish out of the bag and into the tank as
soon as possible, seems preferable any time there are not dramatic
temperature differences between bag and tank water. The method is simple:
Add a little quirt of NovAqua water conditioner to the bag, add the
appropriate dose to the tank, remove the fishes from the bag, and dump them
into the tank.

This advice will disturb many old hands at the hobby, but there is sound
reasoning behind it, and it has worked well for John and numerous retailers
and hobbyists who have followed his advice. Why? While in their shipping
bags in small volumes of water, fish are constantly excreting both ammonia
(which can build up to harmful levels) and carbon dioxide (which lowers the
pH). As soon as you open the bag at home, the CO2 begins to leave the
water, and the pH rises, initiating a chain reaction that makes any ammonia
in the bag more toxic, So as long as conditions in your tank are suitable,
the faster the fish get out of the bag and into the water, the better."

In it Levine correctly reports the reasoning behind the method. He also
reports that many old-timers may find the practice questionable, but to
paraphrase Stephen Jay Gould: the progress of aquarium keeping is impeded
less by "factual lacks" than by "conceptual locks".

At the EECHO Systems' hatchery the method is employed regularly. However,
there has been an improvement. Instead of just using a squirt of NovAqua in
the bag and the tank, a squirt of AmQuel is also used. The addition of the
AmQuel aids, of course, in the reduction of ammonia that has built-up in
the bag and in handling the spike of ammonia that often results when new
fishes are added to the tank.
=
The reasons for not floating bags are quite clear and reasonable:

(a) floated bags warm up increasing the oxygen requirements of the fishes
in them

(b) it has been suggested that there is a certain amount of atmospheric gas
exchange between the water in the bag and the air outside; this gas
exchange is stopped when the bags are immersed in water

(c) bags can be expected to carry contaminating microorganisms on their
outside surfaces; floating them allows contamination of the tank water

(d) adding water to the bags almost always increases the pH and thereby
immediately increases the toxicity of the ammonia the fishes have excreted
during their transportation

(e) aerating the bags will increase the dissolved oxygen concentration and
it will drive off some of the accumulated carbon dioxide, but as the carbon
dioxide is driven off the pH can be expected to rise, and as in (d) above,
the ammonia becomes more toxic

(f) allowing water from the bags to enter the tanks is, of course, a
totally irresponsible practice; this introduces not only the pollutants
that have accumulated in the bag water, but also disease-causing organisms
are introduced to the tank

(g) finally, keeping the fishes in their polluted shipping water longer
than necessary is a poor husbandry practice

For more information about this method please contact us at EECHO Systems:
or .

you got it ... pH swing. this is only when fish been in the bag a while, not your
basic 10 min drive home.
fish make ammonia, drives pH up
fish use oxygen, make CO2, combines with water makes carbonic acid, drives pH down
ammonia is less harmful with low pH
open bag, CO2 starts venting, pH climbs, ammonia becomes more toxic
and for some unknown reason (unknown to me) mixing new water into the bag releases
toxic gases. When Jo Ann was importing she would have to burn candles for a week
after getting new fish ... or suffer headaches and nausea. odd stuff.
anyway, opening the bag and just leaving the fish in there is the worst problem,
mixing water in is a secondary problem.
Ingrid


"Kodiak" wrote:

Wow, every store i've been to says to add a bit of tank water
to the bag before letting them go. Even the bags themselves
have instructions on them. The only thing they say is not to let
the bag water loose into your tank (avoid contamination from
petstore water). I will take your word for it Ingrid, but can you
please elaborate on the theory? PH crash in the bag?

You mentioned 1week to recover from fried gills, do you really think
i fried my poor fishies gills from only 5 hours of transport? How can
you safely ship any fish by UPS or FEDEX then? Must need a big huge
bag of water? What is polyaqua, can you recommend a brand?

...Kodiak


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

it depends.
how much water was in the bag
using "bag buddies": or any other kind of sedative is a no-no
did they put a drop of something in to bind up ammonia (a good thing)
did they flush the bag with pure oxygen or just tanked air?
all fish suffer some gill frying from transport, but opening the bag and leaving them
in the bag water does the most damage.
Polyaqua is the brand name. used for soothing gills
shipping by UPS requires chilling the fish over several days and stop feeding them
for 2 or 3 days before shipping, using ice packs to keep the water cold, adding
something to bind ammonia, using hospital grade pure oxygen to flush the water and
fill the bag. and using adequate sized bag and water for size of fish, i.e.
unpacking. Jo Ann only used UPS and Delta Dash cause they would get the fish there
in 12 hours or so altho she packed such that IF the fish were out 24 or more hours
the fish still would do well. She always had good luck with fish arriving in great
shape.... but ... she did have problems with UPS dropping the box of fish causing
internal injuries. Ingrid

"Kodiak" wrote:
You mentioned 1week to recover from fried gills, do you really think
i fried my poor fishies gills from only 5 hours of transport? How can
you safely ship any fish by UPS or FEDEX then? Must need a big huge
bag of water? What is polyaqua, can you recommend a brand?

...Kodiak


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

yup-- you got it.

"Toni" wrote:
There is some sort of (recently recognized) chemistry problem with gas
exchange if the bag is opened after a too long shipping/traveling time.
*I do not remember the specifics of this*- but when the bag is opened all
the carbon dioxide (produced during travel time) is immediately replaced by
air/oxygen. I believe this affects the pH and ammonia levels in some
negative respect.

If I have fish shipped in I float them to equalize temps then pick them up
and put them in the q-tank. The sooner you get them out of the nasty
shipping water the better... just IMO.

I sure hope Ingrid comes back to correct me and explain further...



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

it goes into solution, but you are correct, CO2 and CO are both heavier than air and
sink in a room. So where should the CO2 and CO monitors go in a house? Ingrid

George Thompson wrote:

Isn't C02 a heavy gas?

It's difficult to loose out of a bag unless you turn it upside down or a
heavier substance displaces it. Not sure if this is true when combined
with water.

George


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

Have we permission to crosspost when appropriate??

--
Toni
http://www.cearbhaill.com/discus.htm



"esq." wrote in message
...
The following notes may help answer some shipping/receiving questions, or
at
least be interesting to discuss.
The subjects are being passed from hobbyist to hobbyist so I do not know
where
or when they first appeared.
====
Squirt & Dump Method

Those of you who have known John Kuhns since his invention of the product
NovAqua (marketed by Kordon) have known of his now famous "squirt and
dump"
method of introducing new fishes into tanks. "Famous" because the method
has now been written about in The Complete Fishkeeper. This book, written
by Joseph S. Levine is subtitled: "everything aquarium fishes need to stay
alive, healthy and happy" is well written and belongs in every aquarist's
library, and is the first book that aquarium shops should sell to new
aquarists.

The excerpt that tells about the "squirt and dump" method is reproduced
he


Adding Fish to the Tank

Traditional wisdom has it that you must float fish bags in your tank for
thirty minutes, mix bag water with tank water, and then tip the bag over
and allow the fishes to swim out on their own. I prefer, however, a
radical
departure from this technique that has been successfully championed by
FISHNET member and aquacultural chemist John Kuhns. John's "dose and dump
technique," which aims to get the fish out of the bag and into the tank as
soon as possible, seems preferable any time there are not dramatic
temperature differences between bag and tank water. The method is simple:
Add a little quirt of NovAqua water conditioner to the bag, add the
appropriate dose to the tank, remove the fishes from the bag, and dump
them
into the tank.

This advice will disturb many old hands at the hobby, but there is sound
reasoning behind it, and it has worked well for John and numerous
retailers
and hobbyists who have followed his advice. Why? While in their shipping
bags in small volumes of water, fish are constantly excreting both ammonia
(which can build up to harmful levels) and carbon dioxide (which lowers
the
pH). As soon as you open the bag at home, the CO2 begins to leave the
water, and the pH rises, initiating a chain reaction that makes any
ammonia
in the bag more toxic, So as long as conditions in your tank are suitable,
the faster the fish get out of the bag and into the water, the better."

In it Levine correctly reports the reasoning behind the method. He also
reports that many old-timers may find the practice questionable, but to
paraphrase Stephen Jay Gould: the progress of aquarium keeping is impeded
less by "factual lacks" than by "conceptual locks".

At the EECHO Systems' hatchery the method is employed regularly. However,
there has been an improvement. Instead of just using a squirt of NovAqua
in
the bag and the tank, a squirt of AmQuel is also used. The addition of the
AmQuel aids, of course, in the reduction of ammonia that has built-up in
the bag and in handling the spike of ammonia that often results when new
fishes are added to the tank.
=
The reasons for not floating bags are quite clear and reasonable:

(a) floated bags warm up increasing the oxygen requirements of the fishes
in them

(b) it has been suggested that there is a certain amount of atmospheric
gas
exchange between the water in the bag and the air outside; this gas
exchange is stopped when the bags are immersed in water

(c) bags can be expected to carry contaminating microorganisms on their
outside surfaces; floating them allows contamination of the tank water

(d) adding water to the bags almost always increases the pH and thereby
immediately increases the toxicity of the ammonia the fishes have excreted
during their transportation

(e) aerating the bags will increase the dissolved oxygen concentration and
it will drive off some of the accumulated carbon dioxide, but as the
carbon
dioxide is driven off the pH can be expected to rise, and as in (d) above,
the ammonia becomes more toxic

(f) allowing water from the bags to enter the tanks is, of course, a
totally irresponsible practice; this introduces not only the pollutants
that have accumulated in the bag water, but also disease-causing organisms
are introduced to the tank

(g) finally, keeping the fishes in their polluted shipping water longer
than necessary is a poor husbandry practice

For more information about this method please contact us at EECHO Systems:
or .

no.. Jo Ann recommends it be used anytime to sooth fried gills. even after treating
with QC for example (not with the QC cause it would inactivate it).
dont worry about the pH of the bag water, only worry about pH if you have really,
really hard water and the LFS water is that much different. the rule of thumb is no
problem bring fish up to 7.0, no problem bringing them down to 7.0, it is taking em
them up or down from 7.0 ( or wherever they are). alkaline water can sometimes cause
dropsy (Noga, I think). and big pH swings can cause all kinds of problems especially
stress. If there is a concern with big pH jumps, then make the pH of the tank water
identical to the pH of the water the fish were in so when you bring them home the pH
is now matched. forget the pH in the bag. waste of time.

the airstone in that bag water is going to blow off the CO2 letting the pH jump up
and ammonia become toxic. it is just pointless to keep fish in their bags when there
is a whole tank of nice fresh water for them. GET EM OUTTA THE BAG. now, when the
fish have been in transit for more than an hour, a salt dip also helps them with
electrolyte balance and strips off cooties they may have (of course they are going
into quarantine, not with established fish). Ingrid



"Kodiak" wrote:
When she said "polyaqua" I assumed that's what she meant
(using it in the bag from the petstore). Yes I agree, cooties
will get in from the fish anyhow, but better minimize the chances.
I never dump bagwater into my tank. If PH is radically different,
what can I do anyhow? Slowly add the new water into the bag
over a longer pelriod say 24 hrs? Of course I would use an airstone
in that case. I like the idea,
thanks...

PS: Fish is still having a hard time adjusting. Hasn't eaten in almost three
days now. Dorsal fin is not really clamped but not completely upright.
He seems to be in energy conservation mode. PH in the tank is 7.0, too
bad I didn't check PH in the bag.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

for the most part good advice... of course Jo Ann been saying this for the last 20-30
years (for those who bought her fish).
forget the squirt of anything. most LFS water is around 75oF and most tank water is
the same so no "equalizing temps" is needed. bring the temp UP is not a problem as
long as the bag was not shipped on ice. if yes, then having the temp of the water
lower is a good idea or floating the bag closed no more than 20 minutes or so. wanna
know if the fish are doing OK? .. look at em. if they are wobbling, GET EM OUTTA THE
BAG. Ingrid


laint (esq.) wrote:

The following notes may help answer some shipping/receiving questions, or at
least be interesting to discuss.
The subjects are being passed from hobbyist to hobbyist so I do not know where
or when they first appeared.
====
Squirt & Dump Method

Those of you who have known John Kuhns since his invention of the product
NovAqua (marketed by Kordon) have known of his now famous "squirt and dump"
method of introducing new fishes into tanks. "Famous" because the method
has now been written about in The Complete Fishkeeper. This book, written
by Joseph S. Levine is subtitled: "everything aquarium fishes need to stay
alive, healthy and happy" is well written and belongs in every aquarist's
library, and is the first book that aquarium shops should sell to new
aquarists.

The excerpt that tells about the "squirt and dump" method is reproduced he


Adding Fish to the Tank

Traditional wisdom has it that you must float fish bags in your tank for
thirty minutes, mix bag water with tank water, and then tip the bag over
and allow the fishes to swim out on their own. I prefer, however, a radical
departure from this technique that has been successfully championed by
FISHNET member and aquacultural chemist John Kuhns. John's "dose and dump
technique," which aims to get the fish out of the bag and into the tank as
soon as possible, seems preferable any time there are not dramatic
temperature differences between bag and tank water. The method is simple:
Add a little quirt of NovAqua water conditioner to the bag, add the
appropriate dose to the tank, remove the fishes from the bag, and dump them
into the tank.

This advice will disturb many old hands at the hobby, but there is sound
reasoning behind it, and it has worked well for John and numerous retailers
and hobbyists who have followed his advice. Why? While in their shipping
bags in small volumes of water, fish are constantly excreting both ammonia
(which can build up to harmful levels) and carbon dioxide (which lowers the
pH). As soon as you open the bag at home, the CO2 begins to leave the
water, and the pH rises, initiating a chain reaction that makes any ammonia
in the bag more toxic, So as long as conditions in your tank are suitable,
the faster the fish get out of the bag and into the water, the better."

In it Levine correctly reports the reasoning behind the method. He also
reports that many old-timers may find the practice questionable, but to
paraphrase Stephen Jay Gould: the progress of aquarium keeping is impeded
less by "factual lacks" than by "conceptual locks".

At the EECHO Systems' hatchery the method is employed regularly. However,
there has been an improvement. Instead of just using a squirt of NovAqua in
the bag and the tank, a squirt of AmQuel is also used. The addition of the
AmQuel aids, of course, in the reduction of ammonia that has built-up in
the bag and in handling the spike of ammonia that often results when new
fishes are added to the tank.
=
The reasons for not floating bags are quite clear and reasonable:

(a) floated bags warm up increasing the oxygen requirements of the fishes
in them

(b) it has been suggested that there is a certain amount of atmospheric gas
exchange between the water in the bag and the air outside; this gas
exchange is stopped when the bags are immersed in water

(c) bags can be expected to carry contaminating microorganisms on their
outside surfaces; floating them allows contamination of the tank water

(d) adding water to the bags almost always increases the pH and thereby
immediately increases the toxicity of the ammonia the fishes have excreted
during their transportation

(e) aerating the bags will increase the dissolved oxygen concentration and
it will drive off some of the accumulated carbon dioxide, but as the carbon
dioxide is driven off the pH can be expected to rise, and as in (d) above,
the ammonia becomes more toxic

(f) allowing water from the bags to enter the tanks is, of course, a
totally irresponsible practice; this introduces not only the pollutants
that have accumulated in the bag water, but also disease-causing organisms
are introduced to the tank

(g) finally, keeping the fishes in their polluted shipping water longer
than necessary is a poor husbandry practice

For more information about this method please contact us at EECHO Systems:
or .



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

No worries in my house... I'm in a 3rd story flat, all C02 goes
downstairs to the other flats.

Plus I don't have gas (I mean of the butane variety)
wrote:
it goes into solution, but you are correct, CO2 and CO are both heavier than air and
sink in a room. So where should the CO2 and CO monitors go in a house? Ingrid

George Thompson wrote:


Isn't C02 a heavy gas?

It's difficult to loose out of a bag unless you turn it upside down or a
heavier substance displaces it. Not sure if this is true when combined
with water.

George



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.