PH Crashed Damn what's going on Now!

Hi Berney,
You made me laugh with this post (voodoo reference) ...
This stuff sure does seem like VooDoo to m sometimes.
I've been watching this group and most people don't believe in the
UGF. Are you having good results with a UGF? Didn't think
it was ideal for Goldfish. Please comment on your setup.

About your comment on not cleaning the entire gravel bed at the
same time, are you saying that maybe I did overclean my gravel?
My Nitrates use to hover around 40ppm, 50ppm worst case.
After i devised this killer suction gravel siphoner system (I attach
a 3/4" garden hose to a python and run it 20ft down into the basement,
the suction is crazy) now my Nitrates are always below10ppm, is that
a bad thing?

Besides that it's true that my city water KH is way too low (25ppm)
I really think my problem was as you say, lack of Alkhalinity.

....Kodiak

"BErney1014" wrote in message
...

sorry, but that colored and maybe coated gravel breaks down and becomes
really toxic
all on its own,

Gravel will raise hardness if it's the "wrong" kind. Pour some acid on the
gravel, does it fizz? Kodiak's problem was lack of alkalinity.

you
are not over
cleaning your gravel, it has gone toxic. get it out, if you must use
plain
old pea
gravel.

Kodiak, common practice is NOT to clean the entire bed at one time. If you
are
serious, install a UGF.

yes, the black crud could be a toxic type of algae. bleach the lid,
rinse
well of
course.

She's making it up.

Good luck Kodiak, too bad she's feeding you voodoo.

unless you boiled or bleached your gravel there is no way to over clean regular
gravel. if your gravel is coated your siphoning may have accelerated the removal of
the plastic like coating, but it really couldnt harm normal gravel. You were doing
it the right way if you kept nitrates down. accumulation of rotting organic stuff in
the gravel is what leads to high nitrates all the time.
even smooth gravel has small pores in it, this is where the colonies of biobugs are
found. organic stuff that filters down onto the gravel and covers it forms a barrier
to the oxygen and water getting to the colonies, this stops the colonies from
working, so if the entire gravel bed can be siphoned without removing all the tank
water, that is recommended. Ingrid

"Kodiak" wrote:
About your comment on not cleaning the entire gravel bed at the
same time, are you saying that maybe I did overclean my gravel?
My Nitrates use to hover around 40ppm, 50ppm worst case.
After i devised this killer suction gravel siphoner system (I attach
a 3/4" garden hose to a python and run it 20ft down into the basement,
the suction is crazy) now my Nitrates are always below10ppm, is that
a bad thing?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

Ingrid is spot on with that post.

Are you having good results with a UGF? Didn't think
it was ideal for Goldfish. Please comment on your setup.

About your comment on not cleaning the entire gravel bed at the
same time, are you saying that maybe I did

Kodiak,
I told you in my first post exactly what happened in your tank and I gave you
the product to fix the problem for good. Seachem equilibrium. It's that simple.
I gave you the name of a reference in the tech talk at Aquatic eco systems web
site and a quote from real science. The site has the chart for you to see the
co2 level you had and explain why the pH drop, etc.
Gravel cleaning is a distruption of a shallow layer of bio film, not a big deal
unless you have a borderline situation like you do with low alkalinity. Carbon
based life forms utilize carbon, in water they suck out carbonates.
You can, for the short term, add baking soda and a little epsom salt to hold
you over.

If you have an interest in my tanks, fine, I can explain it in simple terms:
balance. I have a tank with a ugf deep substrate and NO FILTER. It's been
running for over five years. I have another with deep onxy sand that's been
running for two years, no ugf, it has a sump. What do you want to know?
Again, good luck

Kodiak,

You may not be able to find Dolomite limestone, it is not carried just any
where any more. You used to able to buy it all the time for it was used as
a supplement for cattle and sheep, but about the only place you can find it
now are places where there is a lot of aquaculture facilities. If you can't
find it you may have to try oyster shells. I you have a feed store near you
can get oyster shell chicken grit, or if that is not available you can some
time go to the bird area of your local pet store and look for certain bird
grits. Wash it very good, for sometimes it is pretty dusty, and then put in
a bag made of nylon net from the yard good area of a sewing store or tulle.
Put the bag either in the discharge area of the filter or in the jump flow
of bubbles from you airstone.

Oyster shells keep my ponds between 80 and 129ppm of KH.

HTH

Tom L.L.
-----------------------------------

"Kodiak" wrote in message
...
Thanks for all the info Ingrid, I have a descent airstone and big
Aquaclear300
for a tank that small (33gal) but I didn't want to chance it and get too
much CO2
in there so I raised it slowly. I will definitely look into the dolomitic
limestone as
you mentioned in the other post.
...Kodiak

wrote in message
...
unfortunately, the source you give is confused.
first of all, it doesnt take a lot of hydrogen ions to have the pH drop.
In
distilled water there is no "buffer" so just a slight excess of H+ ions
sends pH
spiraling downward. When there is a buffer present, the excess H+
hydrogen is
neutralized. The purpose of a buffer is to "resist" changes in the pH.
And rise in pH is due to an excess of OH- or hydroxide ions. Again, in
distilled
water it doesnt take much OH to make the pH climb. And the buffer
resist
the change
in pH by neutralizing the excess OH-.
http://members.aol.com/BearFlag45/Bi...eviews/ph.html

The major source of CO2 in water is from the air. Rotting vegetation
will
put CO2
into the water because it is one end product of bacterial action. A
plant
that is
submerged will use up CO2 during the day and put out oxygen. At night it
uses up
oxygen and puts out some CO2, but much less than it is using unless the
plant is dead
and decaying. Plants that only have their roots in the water will not
even put that
much CO2 into the water. CO2 cannot dissolve endlessly in water. At
around pH 6.4 no
more net CO2 will dissolve in water it just goes in as a gas to a
limited
extent.
that is, it enters a steady state with CO2 going into solution and
coming
out of
solution at the same rate. Fish can do fine at pH 6.4.

What pushes the pH down below around pH 6.4 is the presence of organic
acids. Dead
plant matter and feces that are undergoing anaerobic digestion by
bacteria
will
result in partially digested organic breakdown products. These are
acidic
and can
continue to build up as long as there are bacteria that can live at
those
acid
conditions. When there is an abundance of oxygen where bacteria are
"working" they
will break organic matter down to CO2 and H2O plus other non-toxic
compound.

Organic dolomitic limestone is a good source of buffer having both
calcium
and
magnesium. Oyster shells have almost no magnesium
http://www.eggcartons.com/item653.htm which is one reason they are used
as grit for
chickens --- magnesium evidently inhibits egg laying. I put the ground
up
organic
limestone loose in my filter where it is dissolved as needed. Not
everything that is
lime is safe. There are limes that are unstable and cause pH to swing
up
and down,
there are limes that just keep going into solution to high pH and kill
fish.. like
quick lime. So always, always try a handful of the lime material in a
gallon of tank
or pond water and test the pH over a couple days to make absolutely sure
it is safe
to use.

When baking soda is put into acidic water CO2 is liberated. Put a LOT
of
baking soda
into a very acidic water and a LOT of CO2 is generated which means that
until that
CO2 has time to out gas and leave the water it is very toxic to the
fish.
Fish are
no different than we are. We cannot have high levels of CO2 in the air
even if there
is plenty of oxygen. Fish cannot have high levels of CO2 in the water
even if there
is oxygen. It is important to slowly add the baking soda WITH plenty of
aeration.
It is the aeration that moves the CO2 out of the water. Vigorous
aeration
that
breaks the surface speeds the release of excess CO2.

And the big point should be that it isnt just the increase in CO2, it is
the lack of
oxygen in a system that results in the accumulation of organic acids
that
leads to
acidosis and death in fish. So this is why bare bottom tanks are so
good.
There is
no where for rotting organics to accumulate and be broken down
anaerobically. Well,
unless the filter is a closed system. One reason I like my hang over
the
back
Whispers is the filter is open to the air.

You did right in raising the pH but with aeration you could have raised
it
much
faster. Changing the pH from acid to pH 7.0 will not cause big
problems.
They dont
undergo the same kind of shock as going from acid to alkaline, or
alkaline
to acid.
Baking soda is a temporary fix. You need to get the hardness up, a
good
buffering
system established. Ingrid


"Kodiak" wrote:
You also missed that i raised the PH slowly
over a 24 hour period, first 12 hours with a 50%
water, and another 12 hours with the soda.
I guess you also missed that the soda made the fish
much happier. If I took your advice, and that would be do
nothing when your PH crashes, my fish would probably
all be dead by now and i would be a happy camper NOT!...
read this....



http://www.koivet.com/html/articles/...cle_id=206&cat
egory=12&name=Water%20Quality

...Kodiak


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

Sorry Berney, I didn't get your post until this evening.
And that was the post on the 24th about "The Relationship
of Hardness, Alkalinity and Carbon Dioxide" I'm not sure
it's the same post you mean here since i don't see any reference
to Seachem Equilibrium product.

You did mention a graph in that post about "Carbon dioxide level can be
estimated, using the graph on this page, if the pH and alkalinity are
known."

but there was no graph on my page, and no link pointing to a graph.

My ISP has been giving me problems lately and I do miss some posts
occasionally.
Please repost if you can.

About your UGF, i wanted to know if it's true about the problems like when
gravel gets pushed out and "short circuits" as they say, the UGF. But I
imagine
that's why you have deep substrate. How practical is a UGF for a big tank
like 100
gallon, does anyone even make a UGF for tanks that size? Also what do you
think of
those sponge filters you just bury gravel around and attach an air pump to
it?

....Kodiak

"BErney1014" wrote in message
...
Are you having good results with a UGF? Didn't think
it was ideal for Goldfish. Please comment on your setup.

About your comment on not cleaning the entire gravel bed at the
same time, are you saying that maybe I did

Kodiak,
I told you in my first post exactly what happened in your tank and I gave
you
the product to fix the problem for good. Seachem equilibrium. It's that
simple.
I gave you the name of a reference in the tech talk at Aquatic eco systems
web
site and a quote from real science. The site has the chart for you to see
the
co2 level you had and explain why the pH drop, etc.
Gravel cleaning is a distruption of a shallow layer of bio film, not a big
deal
unless you have a borderline situation like you do with low alkalinity.
Carbon
based life forms utilize carbon, in water they suck out carbonates.
You can, for the short term, add baking soda and a little epsom salt to
hold
you over.

If you have an interest in my tanks, fine, I can explain it in simple
terms:
balance. I have a tank with a ugf deep substrate and NO FILTER. It's been
running for over five years. I have another with deep onxy sand that's
been
running for two years, no ugf, it has a sump. What do you want to know?
Again, good luck

Kodiak,

Many of us have used UGF's for years. Many people don't appreciate UGF's is
because of bad press and because they too are susceptible to overstocking
and overfeeding of the Goldfish just like any filter, even powerfilters, but
the problems that occur to UGF's are not easily seen. In my opinion, and
because of my extensive experience, I think the UGF is just a good escape
goat for problems that occur. Hey, you have to put the blame somewhere, why
not the UGF. Case in point, is your situation, you are having a problem and
the first thing that Ingrid suggests is the UGF is the problem and if it is
not that it is the kind of sand you are using.

At one time I had one UGF tank set up for 12 years, the latest one was set
up for 7 years. Never had a problem with either. The problem most people
have with UGF's is that they are not setup correctly. You should have 1 1/2
inches of gravel on top of the UGF plates to 2 inches. If you are using a
Reverse UGF you need to have at least 2 inches to almost three inches of
gravel. The reason for the deeper levels with RUGF is due to the water
being pushed through the filters by high power powerheads. In any event,
the secret is the depth of the sand. Just for my own piece of mind I still
usually run a small power filter in conjunction with the UGF.

I have been around long enough to know there was a time when UGF were the
high tech alternative to air driven outside filters. There was no such
thing as powerfilters with little motors in them. At one time I had one of
the professional air driven filters that was a plastic box that was about 12
inches square and had two siphon tubes in with s-curves that were 1 inch in
diameter and a air driven return that pumped almost 500 gallons an hour. Of
course, you needed a Silent Giant air pump to run just one of these filters,
but it was pretty impressive.

So much for the history lesson, the point is that UGF's have been around and
used for a long time and when you clean the gravel in a tank with an UGF
you use the suction tube and use a pattern method or quadrant method for
cleaning the sand. Then the next time you vacuum you used a different
pattern and/or go to a different quadrant.

Water changes are up to you. I use philodendrons in my tanks and tubs while
the fish are in the house and my nitrates are virtually zero. The thing you
have to remember is that if your tank is cycled the KH is going to be eaten
up by the biocycle so it is important that the KH stays up between 80 and
120ppm. If you don't keep your KH up you pH will crash. It is just that
simple. For a quick and easy fix to your balance problem the Seachem
product that Bruce mentions works great, and in my case for long term
affects the oyster shell chicken grit works great. I would certainly try a
feed store for the oyster chicken grit because it is a lot cheaper that way
that getting it from the pet shop.

In any event, it is not the fault of your UGF it is poor water management.
You have to remember you are the keeper of the environment, and you are
working with small amounts of water that if not taken care of will kick you
in the pants. It is just that simple Goldfish Husbandry.

Good luck, and HTH.

Tom L.L.
---------------------------------------------
"Kodiak" wrote in message
...
Hi Berney,
You made me laugh with this post (voodoo reference) ...
This stuff sure does seem like VooDoo to m sometimes.
I've been watching this group and most people don't believe in the
UGF. Are you having good results with a UGF? Didn't think
it was ideal for Goldfish. Please comment on your setup.

About your comment on not cleaning the entire gravel bed at the
same time, are you saying that maybe I did overclean my gravel?
My Nitrates use to hover around 40ppm, 50ppm worst case.
After i devised this killer suction gravel siphoner system (I attach
a 3/4" garden hose to a python and run it 20ft down into the basement,
the suction is crazy) now my Nitrates are always below10ppm, is that
a bad thing?

Besides that it's true that my city water KH is way too low (25ppm)
I really think my problem was as you say, lack of Alkhalinity.

...Kodiak

"BErney1014" wrote in message
...

sorry, but that colored and maybe coated gravel breaks down and becomes
really toxic
all on its own,

Gravel will raise hardness if it's the "wrong" kind. Pour some acid on
the
gravel, does it fizz? Kodiak's problem was lack of alkalinity.

you
are not over
cleaning your gravel, it has gone toxic. get it out, if you must use
plain
old pea
gravel.

Kodiak, common practice is NOT to clean the entire bed at one time. If
you
are
serious, install a UGF.

yes, the black crud could be a toxic type of algae. bleach the lid,
rinse
well of
course.

She's making it up.

Good luck Kodiak, too bad she's feeding you voodoo.

Hey Tom,
I just bought some crushed Coral and was about to do
the same thing. (put it in a baggy and jam it into my
Aquaclear 500). You think it will be as good as the Oyster shells?
....Kodiak

"Tom La Bron" wrote in message
...
Kodiak,

You may not be able to find Dolomite limestone, it is not carried just any
where any more. You used to able to buy it all the time for it was used
as
a supplement for cattle and sheep, but about the only place you can find
it
now are places where there is a lot of aquaculture facilities. If you
can't
find it you may have to try oyster shells. I you have a feed store near
you
can get oyster shell chicken grit, or if that is not available you can
some
time go to the bird area of your local pet store and look for certain bird
grits. Wash it very good, for sometimes it is pretty dusty, and then put
in
a bag made of nylon net from the yard good area of a sewing store or
tulle.
Put the bag either in the discharge area of the filter or in the jump flow
of bubbles from you airstone.

Oyster shells keep my ponds between 80 and 129ppm of KH.

HTH

Tom L.L.
-----------------------------------

"Kodiak" wrote in message
...
Thanks for all the info Ingrid, I have a descent airstone and big
Aquaclear300
for a tank that small (33gal) but I didn't want to chance it and get too
much CO2
in there so I raised it slowly. I will definitely look into the
dolomitic
limestone as
you mentioned in the other post.
...Kodiak

wrote in message
...
unfortunately, the source you give is confused.
first of all, it doesnt take a lot of hydrogen ions to have the pH
drop.
In
distilled water there is no "buffer" so just a slight excess of H+
ions
sends pH
spiraling downward. When there is a buffer present, the excess H+
hydrogen is
neutralized. The purpose of a buffer is to "resist" changes in the
pH.
And rise in pH is due to an excess of OH- or hydroxide ions. Again,
in
distilled
water it doesnt take much OH to make the pH climb. And the buffer
resist
the change
in pH by neutralizing the excess OH-.
http://members.aol.com/BearFlag45/Bi...eviews/ph.html

The major source of CO2 in water is from the air. Rotting vegetation
will
put CO2
into the water because it is one end product of bacterial action. A
plant
that is
submerged will use up CO2 during the day and put out oxygen. At night
it
uses up
oxygen and puts out some CO2, but much less than it is using unless
the
plant is dead
and decaying. Plants that only have their roots in the water will not
even put that
much CO2 into the water. CO2 cannot dissolve endlessly in water. At
around pH 6.4 no
more net CO2 will dissolve in water it just goes in as a gas to a
limited
extent.
that is, it enters a steady state with CO2 going into solution and
coming
out of
solution at the same rate. Fish can do fine at pH 6.4.

What pushes the pH down below around pH 6.4 is the presence of organic
acids. Dead
plant matter and feces that are undergoing anaerobic digestion by
bacteria
will
result in partially digested organic breakdown products. These are
acidic
and can
continue to build up as long as there are bacteria that can live at
those
acid
conditions. When there is an abundance of oxygen where bacteria are
"working" they
will break organic matter down to CO2 and H2O plus other non-toxic
compound.

Organic dolomitic limestone is a good source of buffer having both
calcium
and
magnesium. Oyster shells have almost no magnesium
http://www.eggcartons.com/item653.htm which is one reason they are
used
as grit for
chickens --- magnesium evidently inhibits egg laying. I put the
ground
up
organic
limestone loose in my filter where it is dissolved as needed. Not
everything that is
lime is safe. There are limes that are unstable and cause pH to swing
up
and down,
there are limes that just keep going into solution to high pH and kill
fish.. like
quick lime. So always, always try a handful of the lime material in a
gallon of tank
or pond water and test the pH over a couple days to make absolutely
sure
it is safe
to use.

When baking soda is put into acidic water CO2 is liberated. Put a LOT
of
baking soda
into a very acidic water and a LOT of CO2 is generated which means
that
until that
CO2 has time to out gas and leave the water it is very toxic to the
fish.
Fish are
no different than we are. We cannot have high levels of CO2 in the
air
even if there
is plenty of oxygen. Fish cannot have high levels of CO2 in the water
even if there
is oxygen. It is important to slowly add the baking soda WITH plenty
of
aeration.
It is the aeration that moves the CO2 out of the water. Vigorous
aeration
that
breaks the surface speeds the release of excess CO2.

And the big point should be that it isnt just the increase in CO2, it
is
the lack of
oxygen in a system that results in the accumulation of organic acids
that
leads to
acidosis and death in fish. So this is why bare bottom tanks are so
good.
There is
no where for rotting organics to accumulate and be broken down
anaerobically. Well,
unless the filter is a closed system. One reason I like my hang over
the
back
Whispers is the filter is open to the air.

You did right in raising the pH but with aeration you could have
raised
it
much
faster. Changing the pH from acid to pH 7.0 will not cause big
problems.
They dont
undergo the same kind of shock as going from acid to alkaline, or
alkaline
to acid.
Baking soda is a temporary fix. You need to get the hardness up, a
good
buffering
system established. Ingrid


"Kodiak" wrote:
You also missed that i raised the PH slowly
over a 24 hour period, first 12 hours with a 50%
water, and another 12 hours with the soda.
I guess you also missed that the soda made the fish
much happier. If I took your advice, and that would be do
nothing when your PH crashes, my fish would probably
all be dead by now and i would be a happy camper NOT!...
read this....




http://www.koivet.com/html/articles/...cle_id=206&cat
egory=12&name=Water%20Quality

...Kodiak


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

Hey Tom,
Thanks for the UGF info. I don't have a UGF, but i
was thinking of putting one in tandem with the AquaClear 300.
Have you gotten better results with RUGF? Why is it better or worst?
I was also thinking of putting in the Phillies, How do you put them
in the tank? Are any of the leaves submersed? Do you just use a
floating mesh basket and let the roots grow in them and the leaves
hang outside of the tank? As for the Aquaclear 300 (33gallon tank with
five 1.5"-2" Goldfish) how often would you clean/rinse filter media? (with
tank
water of course).
....Kodiak


"Tom La Bron" wrote in message
...
Kodiak,

Many of us have used UGF's for years. Many people don't appreciate UGF's
is
because of bad press and because they too are susceptible to overstocking
and overfeeding of the Goldfish just like any filter, even powerfilters,
but
the problems that occur to UGF's are not easily seen. In my opinion, and
because of my extensive experience, I think the UGF is just a good escape
goat for problems that occur. Hey, you have to put the blame somewhere,
why
not the UGF. Case in point, is your situation, you are having a problem
and
the first thing that Ingrid suggests is the UGF is the problem and if it
is
not that it is the kind of sand you are using.

At one time I had one UGF tank set up for 12 years, the latest one was set
up for 7 years. Never had a problem with either. The problem most people
have with UGF's is that they are not setup correctly. You should have 1
1/2
inches of gravel on top of the UGF plates to 2 inches. If you are using a
Reverse UGF you need to have at least 2 inches to almost three inches of
gravel. The reason for the deeper levels with RUGF is due to the water
being pushed through the filters by high power powerheads. In any event,
the secret is the depth of the sand. Just for my own piece of mind I
still
usually run a small power filter in conjunction with the UGF.

I have been around long enough to know there was a time when UGF were the
high tech alternative to air driven outside filters. There was no such
thing as powerfilters with little motors in them. At one time I had one
of
the professional air driven filters that was a plastic box that was about
12
inches square and had two siphon tubes in with s-curves that were 1 inch
in
diameter and a air driven return that pumped almost 500 gallons an hour.
Of
course, you needed a Silent Giant air pump to run just one of these
filters,
but it was pretty impressive.

So much for the history lesson, the point is that UGF's have been around
and
used for a long time and when you clean the gravel in a tank with an UGF
you use the suction tube and use a pattern method or quadrant method for
cleaning the sand. Then the next time you vacuum you used a different
pattern and/or go to a different quadrant.

Water changes are up to you. I use philodendrons in my tanks and tubs
while
the fish are in the house and my nitrates are virtually zero. The thing
you
have to remember is that if your tank is cycled the KH is going to be
eaten
up by the biocycle so it is important that the KH stays up between 80 and
120ppm. If you don't keep your KH up you pH will crash. It is just that
simple. For a quick and easy fix to your balance problem the Seachem
product that Bruce mentions works great, and in my case for long term
affects the oyster shell chicken grit works great. I would certainly try
a
feed store for the oyster chicken grit because it is a lot cheaper that
way
that getting it from the pet shop.

In any event, it is not the fault of your UGF it is poor water management.
You have to remember you are the keeper of the environment, and you are
working with small amounts of water that if not taken care of will kick
you
in the pants. It is just that simple Goldfish Husbandry.

Good luck, and HTH.

Tom L.L.
---------------------------------------------
"Kodiak" wrote in message
...
Hi Berney,
You made me laugh with this post (voodoo reference) ...
This stuff sure does seem like VooDoo to m sometimes.
I've been watching this group and most people don't believe in the
UGF. Are you having good results with a UGF? Didn't think
it was ideal for Goldfish. Please comment on your setup.

About your comment on not cleaning the entire gravel bed at the
same time, are you saying that maybe I did overclean my gravel?
My Nitrates use to hover around 40ppm, 50ppm worst case.
After i devised this killer suction gravel siphoner system (I attach
a 3/4" garden hose to a python and run it 20ft down into the basement,
the suction is crazy) now my Nitrates are always below10ppm, is that
a bad thing?

Besides that it's true that my city water KH is way too low (25ppm)
I really think my problem was as you say, lack of Alkhalinity.

...Kodiak

"BErney1014" wrote in message
...

sorry, but that colored and maybe coated gravel breaks down and
becomes
really toxic
all on its own,

Gravel will raise hardness if it's the "wrong" kind. Pour some acid on
the
gravel, does it fizz? Kodiak's problem was lack of alkalinity.

you
are not over
cleaning your gravel, it has gone toxic. get it out, if you must use
plain
old pea
gravel.

Kodiak, common practice is NOT to clean the entire bed at one time. If
you
are
serious, install a UGF.

yes, the black crud could be a toxic type of algae. bleach the lid,
rinse
well of
course.

She's making it up.

Good luck Kodiak, too bad she's feeding you voodoo.

Kodiak,

It is a good alternative. Just pack it loose so the water will flow through
it. You really don't need a lot unless you water is pretty acidic. In my
ponds I have a tray of the oyster shells in the filter and every spring I
put about three quarters of an inch in it. One year when we had incessant
rains when I put more shells in the next Spring there was only about 3/8 of
an inch left in the tray. You don't necessarily see the decrease but it
does occur.

Tom L.L.
-------------------------------------
"Kodiak" wrote in message
.. .
Hey Tom,
I just bought some crushed Coral and was about to do
the same thing. (put it in a baggy and jam it into my
Aquaclear 500). You think it will be as good as the Oyster shells?
...Kodiak

"Tom La Bron" wrote in message
...
Kodiak,

You may not be able to find Dolomite limestone, it is not carried just
any
where any more. You used to able to buy it all the time for it was used
as
a supplement for cattle and sheep, but about the only place you can find
it
now are places where there is a lot of aquaculture facilities. If you
can't
find it you may have to try oyster shells. I you have a feed store near
you
can get oyster shell chicken grit, or if that is not available you can
some
time go to the bird area of your local pet store and look for certain
bird
grits. Wash it very good, for sometimes it is pretty dusty, and then
put
in
a bag made of nylon net from the yard good area of a sewing store or
tulle.
Put the bag either in the discharge area of the filter or in the jump
flow
of bubbles from you airstone.

Oyster shells keep my ponds between 80 and 129ppm of KH.

HTH

Tom L.L.
-----------------------------------

"Kodiak" wrote in message
...
Thanks for all the info Ingrid, I have a descent airstone and big
Aquaclear300
for a tank that small (33gal) but I didn't want to chance it and get
too
much CO2
in there so I raised it slowly. I will definitely look into the
dolomitic
limestone as
you mentioned in the other post.
...Kodiak

wrote in message
...
unfortunately, the source you give is confused.
first of all, it doesnt take a lot of hydrogen ions to have the pH
drop.
In
distilled water there is no "buffer" so just a slight excess of H+
ions
sends pH
spiraling downward. When there is a buffer present, the excess H+
hydrogen is
neutralized. The purpose of a buffer is to "resist" changes in the
pH.
And rise in pH is due to an excess of OH- or hydroxide ions. Again,
in
distilled
water it doesnt take much OH to make the pH climb. And the buffer
resist
the change
in pH by neutralizing the excess OH-.
http://members.aol.com/BearFlag45/Bi...eviews/ph.html

The major source of CO2 in water is from the air. Rotting
vegetation
will
put CO2
into the water because it is one end product of bacterial action. A
plant
that is
submerged will use up CO2 during the day and put out oxygen. At
night
it
uses up
oxygen and puts out some CO2, but much less than it is using unless
the
plant is dead
and decaying. Plants that only have their roots in the water will
not
even put that
much CO2 into the water. CO2 cannot dissolve endlessly in water. At
around pH 6.4 no
more net CO2 will dissolve in water it just goes in as a gas to a
limited
extent.
that is, it enters a steady state with CO2 going into solution and
coming
out of
solution at the same rate. Fish can do fine at pH 6.4.

What pushes the pH down below around pH 6.4 is the presence of
organic
acids. Dead
plant matter and feces that are undergoing anaerobic digestion by
bacteria
will
result in partially digested organic breakdown products. These are
acidic
and can
continue to build up as long as there are bacteria that can live at
those
acid
conditions. When there is an abundance of oxygen where bacteria are
"working" they
will break organic matter down to CO2 and H2O plus other non-toxic
compound.

Organic dolomitic limestone is a good source of buffer having both
calcium
and
magnesium. Oyster shells have almost no magnesium
http://www.eggcartons.com/item653.htm which is one reason they are
used
as grit for
chickens --- magnesium evidently inhibits egg laying. I put the
ground
up
organic
limestone loose in my filter where it is dissolved as needed. Not
everything that is
lime is safe. There are limes that are unstable and cause pH to
swing
up
and down,
there are limes that just keep going into solution to high pH and
kill
fish.. like
quick lime. So always, always try a handful of the lime material in
a
gallon of tank
or pond water and test the pH over a couple days to make absolutely
sure
it is safe
to use.

When baking soda is put into acidic water CO2 is liberated. Put a
LOT
of
baking soda
into a very acidic water and a LOT of CO2 is generated which means
that
until that
CO2 has time to out gas and leave the water it is very toxic to the
fish.
Fish are
no different than we are. We cannot have high levels of CO2 in the
air
even if there
is plenty of oxygen. Fish cannot have high levels of CO2 in the
water
even if there
is oxygen. It is important to slowly add the baking soda WITH
plenty
of
aeration.
It is the aeration that moves the CO2 out of the water. Vigorous
aeration
that
breaks the surface speeds the release of excess CO2.

And the big point should be that it isnt just the increase in CO2,
it
is
the lack of
oxygen in a system that results in the accumulation of organic acids
that
leads to
acidosis and death in fish. So this is why bare bottom tanks are so
good.
There is
no where for rotting organics to accumulate and be broken down
anaerobically. Well,
unless the filter is a closed system. One reason I like my hang
over
the
back
Whispers is the filter is open to the air.

You did right in raising the pH but with aeration you could have
raised
it
much
faster. Changing the pH from acid to pH 7.0 will not cause big
problems.
They dont
undergo the same kind of shock as going from acid to alkaline, or
alkaline
to acid.
Baking soda is a temporary fix. You need to get the hardness up, a
good
buffering
system established. Ingrid


"Kodiak" wrote:
You also missed that i raised the PH slowly
over a 24 hour period, first 12 hours with a 50%
water, and another 12 hours with the soda.
I guess you also missed that the soda made the fish
much happier. If I took your advice, and that would be do
nothing when your PH crashes, my fish would probably
all be dead by now and i would be a happy camper NOT!...
read this....





http://www.koivet.com/html/articles/...cle_id=206&cat
egory=12&name=Water%20Quality

...Kodiak


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
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endorsements or recommendations I make.