Grounding Probe

The same situation could happen in any other wet environment.
Such as fish tank: salt water spilled on the floor where you stand
combined with a faulty electric device submersed in the water where you
put your hands can be very deadly combination and that is the reason
smart people recommend GFCI for us to power fish tanks equipment from.

Right, Especially on concrete! (Giant solid gelatin).... But what about
wood flooring or Carpet? The majority of aquarium devices do not include
grounds in their cords. However they really should. A ground probe provides
a positive ground to the tank to trip the GFCI immediately in case of a
problem. It is just an added safety measure. However, like you I believe the
other stuff is hocus pocus snake oil.....

However, after saying that, imagine the fact that the entire tank
essentially becomes a Faraday Cage once the ground it inserted. More physics
than I would like to think about this early. I am sure that a book could be
written about this subject if studied in a lab. Only then would such
discussions be resolved. Until then this is just opinion versus opinion....


"Pszemol" wrote in message
...
"Stephen" wrote in message
...
GFCI's are installed in bathrooms and kitchens because you are literally
surrounded by potential grounds. The plumbing system! Running Water!
Metal
Basins! etc...

The same situation could happen in any other wet environment.
Such as fish tank: salt water spilled on the floor wehre you stand
combined with a faulty electric device submersed in the water where you
put your hands can be very deadly combination and that is the reason
smart people recommend GFCI for us to power fish tanks equipment from.

You can hold an AC hot wire and not get shocked if you are not
grounded....

Right. Is there anybody claiming anything else here?
See my "birds sitting on a 20kV wire" example... :-)

Not the name is GROUND FAULT CIRCUIT INTERRUPTER... You have to have a
ground fault to trip the circuit interrupter....

I hope you do not derive all your knowledge about GFCI from its name ;-)

I can easily imagine a scenario when GFCI will trip when grounding
will be perfect and DO NOT trip when grounding is faulty...
If your imagination does not work for some reason I can give you
full description of such scenarios.
Is then the GFCI name wrong? Let's change it! ;-)

"J" wrote in message news:guIVa.16583$YN5.16888@sccrnsc01...
He's a troll I believe.

Are you sure you want to start childish name calling game?

The answers to all his statements and questions
are in my post but he won't listen or understand.

In which of your posts are all the answers?

"Boomer" wrote in message ...
http://www.aquarium.net/1298/1298_3.shtml

I read this before and I strongly disagree. Let me quote something terrible:
"So if you now accept this as the normal case for SW tanks, you begin asking yourself
if this is a problem. I have discussed this with several educated folks, and we have
concluded that the minute currents in the tank, due to grounding with titanium probes,
are much less significant than unterminated voltages on the order of tens or hundreds
of volts" - this is totaly FALSE. And I have explained this already based on an
example with standing on 10th floor and on the 2nd floor. Standing on the 10th floor
(unterminated voltage) is not dangerous until you fall down (create a current flow).
And by adding grounding probe to those detected stray voltages you are creating
"minute currents" on the levels about 0.1-1mA even if all devices are in good order.
I do not know Gerry Parker, but I can only say it is not enough to have an access to
labolatory grade test equipment - you also have to know what are you exactly measuring.
The test equipment unfortunately will not do the thinking part for you...

http://avdil.gtri.gatech.edu/RCM/RCM...ingProbes.html

This one, in oposite, is very good and convincing.
"In conclusion, the addition of a "grounding probes" will guarantee an electrical
current flow in your aquarium and may induce erratic behavior or disease in your fish.
If you have defective aquarium appliances that are creating a current path in your
aquarium by using the salt water as a conductive medium, then the solution is to repair
the appliances or replace them... not divert a portion of the current into a "grounding probe"."

This is exactly what I am trying to say here. "NO" to grounding probes - period.

"Stephen" wrote in message ...
Right, Especially on concrete! (Giant solid gelatin).... But what about
wood flooring or Carpet? The majority of aquarium devices do not include
grounds in their cords. However they really should. A ground probe provides
a positive ground to the tank to trip the GFCI immediately in case of a
problem. It is just an added safety measure. However, like you I believe the
other stuff is hocus pocus snake oil.....

This "added safety measure" is not needed. That is my point exactly.
If there is no current flow enough to trip GFCI there is also not
enough current flow to electrocute you. Do you agree on this matter?

And, when you add grounding probe you are CAUSING current flows from
a faulty device to the ground through the water column. GFCI are not
designed to trip on current levels which stress your fish, so such
currents can flow to the grounding probe unstopped. That is the reason
I am strongly against the grounding probe as a cure to the faulty device
leaking some electricity to the water. In the value range from 0-5mA
GFCI will not react, so such currents as 5mA could flow from the faulty
device to the ground with a help of this probe.

However, after saying that, imagine the fact that the entire tank
essentially becomes a Faraday Cage once the ground it inserted.

I disagree. This is not a very good analogy. Situation in the fish
tank is far more complicated. I would say that fish body resistance
to the AC current is comparable to the salt water resistance so you
cannot neglect currents flowing through the fish body in the calculation.
The body of any living thing is full of electrolytes conducting
electricity very well.

More physics than I would like to think about this early.
I am sure that a book could be
written about this subject if studied in a lab. Only then would such
discussions be resolved. Until then this is just opinion versus opinion....

I see you are not willing to challenge my scenarios with GFCI, ok :-)

feel free to tell me shut up if I'm pestering you..lol

Shut up! Heehe... Helping Marc to say it. He is just too nice to use those
words.

CapFusion,...

In article , Pszemol wrote:
"Boomer" wrote in message ...
http://www.aquarium.net/1298/1298_3.shtml

I read this before and I strongly disagree.

Disagree all you want, but the paper is correct. The findings were
based on scientific procedures and principles.


http://avdil.gtri.gatech.edu/RCM/RCM...ingProbes.html

This one, in oposite, is very good and convincing.

It is convincing, but incorrect. The author did not do any
research to arrive at their conclusions.


If you have defective aquarium appliances that are creating a current path in your
aquarium by using the salt water as a conductive medium, then the solution is to repair
the appliances or replace them... not divert a portion of the current into a "grounding probe"."

The grounding probe will cause the GFCI or circuit breaker to trip
alerting you to the possibility of defective equipment.

There will be currents flowing in an aquarium with or without the
grounding probe. This is the nature of AC.

"Pszemol" wrote in message
...
"Stephen" wrote in message
...
Right, Especially on concrete! (Giant solid gelatin).... But what about
wood flooring or Carpet? The majority of aquarium devices do not include
grounds in their cords. However they really should. A ground probe
provides
a positive ground to the tank to trip the GFCI immediately in case of a
problem. It is just an added safety measure. However, like you I believe
the
other stuff is hocus pocus snake oil.....

This "added safety measure" is not needed. That is my point exactly.
If there is no current flow enough to trip GFCI there is also not
enough current flow to electrocute you. Do you agree on this matter?

I think you are confusing the functionality of a GFCI to a circuit
breaker....
GFCI detects current leaking to ground, not the neutral wire... Without a
ground, thats all there would be, current leaking to neutral....






And, when you add grounding probe you are CAUSING current flows from
a faulty device to the ground through the water column. GFCI are not
designed to trip on current levels which stress your fish, so such
currents can flow to the grounding probe unstopped. That is the reason
I am strongly against the grounding probe as a cure to the faulty device
leaking some electricity to the water. In the value range from 0-5mA
GFCI will not react, so such currents as 5mA could flow from the faulty
device to the ground with a help of this probe.

However, after saying that, imagine the fact that the entire tank
essentially becomes a Faraday Cage once the ground it inserted.

I disagree. This is not a very good analogy. Situation in the fish
tank is far more complicated. I would say that fish body resistance
to the AC current is comparable to the salt water resistance so you
cannot neglect currents flowing through the fish body in the calculation.
The body of any living thing is full of electrolytes conducting
electricity very well.

More physics than I would like to think about this early.
I am sure that a book could be
written about this subject if studied in a lab. Only then would such
discussions be resolved. Until then this is just opinion versus
opinion....

I see you are not willing to challenge my scenarios with GFCI, ok :-)

"Stephen" wrote in message ...
I think you are confusing the functionality of a GFCI to a circuit
breaker....
GFCI detects current leaking to ground, not the neutral wire...
Without a ground, thats all there would be, current leaking to neutral....

No, I am not confusing it. I fully understand how it works.

And you are *almost* right saying it detects the current
leaking to the ground wire. The exact statement is that GFCI
detects a *difference* in the current value between hot and
neutral wire. This difference can leak to the ground wire by
the grounding probe *OR* through your hands, legs, the floor
(or water pipes or gas line) then dirrectly to the ground.

"SG" wrote in message ...
In article , Pszemol wrote:

This "added safety measure" is not needed. That is my point exactly.
If there is no current flow enough to trip GFCI there is also not
enough current flow to electrocute you. Do you agree on this matter?

A GFCI will not trip unless a ground is present. Once a ground is
present a GFCI takes some time to trip (but it is very fast). I want
to be a ground for 120v for exactly zero seconds and no more.

It is your choice :-)

"richard reynolds" wrote in message .. .
My goal is not to force you to change your mind.
My goal was to express my opinion on this subject.
It is up to each of us to make the best decision
in order to care for animals we take our responsibility for.

I know !

Good :-)

there is some evidence but as i hinted to the study basically
says we need to study it which isnt enough.

Exactly :-)

being a preditor tank the ONLY circulation is from the sump
to tank (and back duh )
the sump is a 20long
the tank is a 75 and completely covered in diatom algae

the only thing in the tank is the ray, a porcupine puffer,
a 4" very fine sand bed (forget dsb the ray tosses it over
and over) and a ground probe (not the only one, not always in there)

Is it glass tank?

as its outside and as outside is easy to get to dirt to ground it instead of using the
ground wire from the main i ran a seperate wire 10gague solid copper to a 10' grounding
rod burried about 9' deep its all of 4' from the sump to the rod the box from the main has
a circuit breaker plus one of them hard cutoff switches the breaker is a gfci breaker,
this is attached to both ground probes and the canister heater one ground probe is in the
sump the other is in the tank. the heaters grounded but I THINK that its only the outside
thats really grounded not the part that touches the water when its working, ive tested
this a few times and to the best i could come up with this is the case.

I have 2 skimmers both americal typhoon's ran with rio 3500's with the rio rtv adapter
YES IVE CHECKED THEM THERE NOT THE CAUSE figured id get that straight out because w/o it
ppl are gona jump on these poor rios

the return pump which ive checked out over and over is a slightly older little giant 3-md
something

there is a canister heater which probibly hasnt even flickerd sence april and a fan on a
thermostat its ran on sence april

The only way to eliminate this heater from the picture is completely
remove it from the AC outlet. Assumtion it does not flicker because
water is hotter than the thermostate setup is probably true, but it
does not say if we have current leak from it to water or not...
It could leak even if the thermostate does not turn it on. It could be
one pole switch, so one pole can be constantly on.

i get the same very very small stray voltage going through the probe

What do you mean "voltage going through the probe"?
I have already explained here a mistake people do measuring the voltage.
You can prove me wrong by using very different voltmetter and measuring
the voltage again. Tell me please what you have read from both readings.

ill have to dig up details ive posted them before and while ive
done it a few times, id like to not mess up the details. ive used
analog and digital meters in several AC and DC modes, all good meters.

I would be very surprised if you measured the same stray voltages
with different types of meters :-) Their readins will mostly depend
on their internal resistance compared to the resistance of the devices
insulation.

for all I can tell there is NOTHING in the tank adding to
any current besides the tank/water/fish

Tell me more how did you find out about this.

trial and error and a few dead rays
I should point out the "for all I can tell" part
one more time.

Right... and since I am not a ray expert I have no idea what was
stressing your fish. In terms of electicity in other hand, I know
what I am saying... :-)

I am glad you are happy. But you can help others adding more details
about your setup. Please do.

ill be glad to do any tests you can think of in
the interest in providing a better place ,
but I'd like to not re do them all,

No, if everything is working - do not change anything... :-)
I would be only interested in two things:
- what is the influence of you heater being off to the stray voltages
- what is the reading of stray voltages from a set of different meters :-)

I am not an electronics expert, but ive been around the block many times. all the major
electrical work like the grounding rod and the run from the mains was done by a licensed
electrcian as rqd by local code I even went as far as having it all inspected by a
different guy just to make sure it wasnt something fsked up with the first guys wiring

Good. I have no doubt your grounding is good.

BTW - do you have pictures of your outside tank setup?
I am interested in seeing it if you have them available.