Help, Newbie problems.

Fair enough. "gram" is a stain; soe bacteria are stained by it some aren't;
I alwsys thought that was a kinda broad generalization.

Gram staining not a broad generalization at all. The staining is very
specific to bacteria with a thick aminoglycoside cell wall. It is easy
to perform and very reproducible, which is why the method is still
extensively used. Antibiotics like penicillin inhibit synthesis of
this wall and cause *only* gram positive bacteria to lyse. The cell
wall also changes the permability of many antibiotics. The label "gram
negative" does encompass a very wide variety of organisms, and knowing
that an organism is gram negative doesn't tell you much.

"Altum" wrote in message
oups.com...
Fair enough. "gram" is a stain; soe bacteria are stained by it some
aren't;
I alwsys thought that was a kinda broad generalization.

Gram staining not a broad generalization at all. The staining is very
specific to bacteria with a thick aminoglycoside cell wall. It is easy
to perform and very reproducible, which is why the method is still
extensively used. Antibiotics like penicillin inhibit synthesis of
this wall and cause *only* gram positive bacteria to lyse. The cell
wall also changes the permability of many antibiotics. The label "gram
negative" does encompass a very wide variety of organisms, and knowing
that an organism is gram negative doesn't tell you much.


Does that mean that it's not enough to know that the problem bacteria is
gram negative, but we need to match antibiotic types to it as well?

I was ok with learning some chemistry, behavioural psychology, & various
engineering bits on heaters, filters and lights, but I think I'll draw
the line at matching antibiotics to culture samples ;~).

You hear that fish? Stay healthy!
--
www.NetMax.tk

Does that mean that it's not enough to know that the problem bacteria is
gram negative, but we need to match antibiotic types to it as well?

Yes and it's worse than that. Whereas you can find it documented what
antibiotic touse against what bacterial pathogen you must first do
a test to see if it is resistant against the antibiotic you plan on
using. That is, does the sugested antibiotic *still* work ?

The last thing we need is antibiotic resistant Mycobacteria.

Mycobacteria is present in virtually all wild water and in all wild fish.
Usually they're healthy enough to just live with it. Sometimes not...

When/if they show symptoms, we call this fish TB. It is in the same
genus as human TB. There is no cure in fish[1], and it's protracted
in humans.

If *CAN* infect humans, the treatment is both expensive and painfull
and mycobacteriosis has claimed the life of at least one aquarist so far.

"Not only are antibiotics dangerous to our future health if we create
``super-bugs'' by careless use but misdiagnosis may cause us to kill
fish by treatments that have no hope of working."

- James Langhammer,
past Curator of Fishes at the Belle Isle Aquarium in Detroit.


"The greatest possibility of evil in self-medication is the use of
too-small doses, so that instead of clearing up infection the microbes
are educated to resist penicillin..."

- Sir Alexander Fleming,
Discoverer of penicillin, interview with the New York Times in 1945

[1] Scheel found it to only be a problem in soft acid water, and
that fish raisedin hard alkaline water did not suffer the problem,
but fish from soft acid water would not sexually ripen in hard
water. His attitude (with all the wild killies he caught, back
in the 60s) was to raise them in hard water then put them in soft
acid water long enough to let them ripen and breed and eventually
he'd have myco-free fish.

Once more with feeling:

http://aquaria.net/articles/meds/antibiotics/warning/


--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

"Richard Sexton" wrote in message
...
Does that mean that it's not enough to know that the problem bacteria
is
gram negative, but we need to match antibiotic types to it as well?

Yes and it's worse than that. Whereas you can find it documented what
antibiotic touse against what bacterial pathogen you must first do
a test to see if it is resistant against the antibiotic you plan on
using. That is, does the sugested antibiotic *still* work ?

The last thing we need is antibiotic resistant Mycobacteria.

Mycobacteria is present in virtually all wild water and in all wild
fish.
Usually they're healthy enough to just live with it. Sometimes not...

When/if they show symptoms, we call this fish TB. It is in the same
genus as human TB. There is no cure in fish[1], and it's protracted
in humans.

If *CAN* infect humans, the treatment is both expensive and painfull
and mycobacteriosis has claimed the life of at least one aquarist so
far.

"Not only are antibiotics dangerous to our future health if we create
``super-bugs'' by careless use but misdiagnosis may cause us to kill
fish by treatments that have no hope of working."

- James Langhammer,
past Curator of Fishes at the Belle Isle Aquarium in Detroit.


"The greatest possibility of evil in self-medication is the use of
too-small doses, so that instead of clearing up infection the microbes
are educated to resist penicillin..."

- Sir Alexander Fleming,
Discoverer of penicillin, interview with the New York Times in 1945

[1] Scheel found it to only be a problem in soft acid water, and
that fish raisedin hard alkaline water did not suffer the problem,
but fish from soft acid water would not sexually ripen in hard
water. His attitude (with all the wild killies he caught, back
in the 60s) was to raise them in hard water then put them in soft
acid water long enough to let them ripen and breed and eventually
he'd have myco-free fish.

Once more with feeling:

http://aquaria.net/articles/meds/antibiotics/warning/


I'm familiar with piscine TB. Any of my staff who cut themselves were
taken off gravel-vacuum duty and sent to stock shelves. When we didn't
have any choice, I had a waterproof tape which worked very well (hospital
grade, to keep infections out of open wounds while showering). I haven't
used A/B in a home tank for as long as I can remember, but the situation
was very different in the trade : (
--
www.NetMax.tk

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

I'm not entirely against the use of antibiotics especially in the home
aquarium. I suspect the threat doesn't come from Joe Fishkeeper
medicating his sick fish. It comes from the mass dosing of captured
fish in the name of "preventative medicine." I never understood
medicating perfectly healthy fish. It's only going to cause further
stress.

Non-Antibiotics aren't the perfect answer either. Many of them can be
seriously dangerous to handle. There are also issues with their
effectiveness in internal bacterial infections. They may work great on
an open wound but be considerably less effective on flavobacterium for
example. As is, it's a daily challenge to convince Newbies to buy the
basic test kits. Imagine their reaction when you suggest picking up a
gram scale and creating stock solutions.

There are a lot of challenges and we have to find the right balance.

On 9 Feb 2006 08:42:40 -0800, "IDzine01"
wrote:

I'm not entirely against the use of antibiotics especially in the home
aquarium. I suspect the threat doesn't come from Joe Fishkeeper
medicating his sick fish. It comes from the mass dosing of captured
fish in the name of "preventative medicine." I never understood
medicating perfectly healthy fish. It's only going to cause further
stress.

Non-Antibiotics aren't the perfect answer either. Many of them can be
seriously dangerous to handle. There are also issues with their
effectiveness in internal bacterial infections. They may work great on
an open wound but be considerably less effective on flavobacterium for
example. As is, it's a daily challenge to convince Newbies to buy the
basic test kits. Imagine their reaction when you suggest picking up a
gram scale and creating stock solutions.

There are a lot of challenges and we have to find the right balance.

Two new products I've discovered since getting back into the hobby are
Melafix and Pimafix. From some of the postings here, it appears that
some are using these solutions as a general preventative agent, adding
when starting new tanks, doing water changes, introducing new fish.
What's the scoop on these products?

Mr Gardener

"IDzine01" wrote in message
oups.com...
I'm not entirely against the use of antibiotics especially in the home
aquarium. I suspect the threat doesn't come from Joe Fishkeeper
medicating his sick fish. It comes from the mass dosing of captured
fish in the name of "preventative medicine." I never understood
medicating perfectly healthy fish. It's only going to cause further
stress.

Non-Antibiotics aren't the perfect answer either. Many of them can be
seriously dangerous to handle. There are also issues with their
effectiveness in internal bacterial infections. They may work great on
an open wound but be considerably less effective on flavobacterium for
example. As is, it's a daily challenge to convince Newbies to buy the
basic test kits. Imagine their reaction when you suggest picking up a
gram scale and creating stock solutions.

There are a lot of challenges and we have to find the right balance.


The right balance should (I think) include medicated foods, especially for
internal diseases. This allows much smaller doses, targeted at the problem,
rather than inefficiently broadcasting the antibiotics throughout the water
column, affecting every organism and putting the biological filtration at
risk.

In regards to mass dosing, I don't know which is worse, the farming of food
fish affecting our ecosystem, or the recreational fish-farming industry
(tropical fish), as both have a huge potential for disasters. My money is
on the off-coast food-fish farming being the sleeping giant (disguised by
the huge water volumes involved), but the hormone/antibiotic use in the
trade is also *very* scary. Peasant farmers in Asia-Pacific are not my idea
of responsible environmentalists carefully following product directions ;~).
--
www.NetMax.tk

Melafix, Pimafix and Bettafix are all essentially Tea Tree Oil. The
main ingredient is Melaleuca. It's essentially an antiseptic that helps
to keep open wounds clean and speed up healing. It claims to have some
minor antibacterial properties but hasn't, from what I've heard,
appeared to work very well. It is not a bactericide and will not kill
parasites.

Some people have reported adverse reactions among anabantids
(ironically since it's sold as a betta remedy). No tests have been done
as far as I know and no one seems to know why it may affect them
specifically. Perhaps it somehow interacts with the labyrinth organ. I
dunno.

In my personal opinion, I would never use it to treat a bacterial
infection or fin rot like it recommends. It may work well, however, to
speed up healing of ripped fins (non-bacterial) or open wounds or
ulcers. (or to help the healing of fins after the bacterial infection
has been addressed in fin rot) Then again, clean water and vigilance
may work well too.

The only preventative agent I know of is clean water and a stable
environment.

"IDzine01" wrote in message
ps.com...
Melafix, Pimafix and Bettafix are all essentially Tea Tree Oil. The
main ingredient is Melaleuca. It's essentially an antiseptic that helps
to keep open wounds clean and speed up healing. It claims to have some
minor antibacterial properties but hasn't, from what I've heard,
appeared to work very well. It is not a bactericide and will not kill
parasites.

Some people have reported adverse reactions among anabantids
(ironically since it's sold as a betta remedy). No tests have been done
as far as I know and no one seems to know why it may affect them
specifically. Perhaps it somehow interacts with the labyrinth organ. I
dunno.

In my personal opinion, I would never use it to treat a bacterial
infection or fin rot like it recommends. It may work well, however, to
speed up healing of ripped fins (non-bacterial) or open wounds or
ulcers. (or to help the healing of fins after the bacterial infection
has been addressed in fin rot) Then again, clean water and vigilance
may work well too.

The only preventative agent I know of is clean water and a stable
environment.


I've had limited success with MelaFix (after experimenting to find out what,
if anything it was useful for). I had two Neon tetra tanks (200 to 700
Neons) and I found that my success rate with treating them conventionally
was very patchy, as they were in such fragile condition. Whenever I
received new fish with any external symptoms (ie: ammonia burn at the ends
of the fins, etc) I would dose with MelaFix (every 2nd day) for a couple of
weeks (the water change system diluted it fairly quickly). The mortality
rate was significantly reduced in this particular application, but I don't
know if I would recommend the product (my application was very specific).
ymmv

I know where MelaFix should NOT be used. We had an indoor 800g pond with a
waterfall in the store. I added a half-dosage of MelaFix and the pond
foamed up almost as bad as when my kids tried bubble bath in the Jacuzzi O
!!
--
www.NetMax.tk

I couldn't agree more... on both paragraphs.