Overdriving NO Tubes

"Boomer" wrote in message
...
I do not need to correct myself :-) and might add you have mis-read this
and misexplained
some things

I think it is more "Sorry Pszemol" please correct yourself : -)

"which is not true to my knowledge. They do get ionized and they
emit UV light, which is turned into visible rays of light by the phosphors
mixture on the internal surface of the tubes... "

Well, that is incorrect as the bulb does not generate enough energy to
ionize Argon. What
makes you think it does.Only HID generate enough energy to ionize Argon.
Do you have ref.
that states that Argon in fluro lamp gets ionized and produces light or
are you just
assuming that ?

"If you use UV-transparent glass
type to make the tube and do not use phosphors you would get the UV
fluorescent tube."

It is the Mercury that becomes vaporized and ionized that does that,
producing UV not
Argon. You will only see Argon peaks in HID bulbs.


"It is not the pressure which generates light. "

I never said pressure generates light, I said

"Increasing bulb
pressure alone increases output, as the argon gas pressure increases, due
to added heat
and overdrive"

and

"Gas pressure = more lumens / watt"


Know where did I say pressure produces light, I said pressure increases
output. A bulb
with no Argon gas, thus less pressure from heating and will have a lower
efficacy rating
than one with Argon. An Argon filled bulb would have a higher efficacy
than a non-Argon
filled bulb. The pressure reaches about 2-3 torr. Pressure lowers the
wattage required to
attain x lumens / W. Nowhere in the GTE manuals does it even mention that
Argon adds at
all to the spectrum and there is no Argon peak in any SED Curve

This is how things work;
When a fluro receives electrical current there is a passage of that
current through the
electrodes, called "Hot Electrodes", sealed at either end of the bulb. The
heat generated
heats up the tungsten filament and its emissive material such as Barium,
Strontium,
Calcium Oxide). As then become heated (950 C) they release electrons.
These electrons
travel at high speed from one electrode to another. Other electrons are
also released by
the field differences of the electrodes. This produces an electrical
discharge arch or
plasma. As these electrons and arch are produced it increases internal
pressure, causing
liquid Mercury in the tube to become heated, causing it to become
vaporized and shed
electrons. This release of electrons from Mercury produces UV light. These
electrons fall
back into orbit but only to be re-released again as the bulb is still
receiving current.
This "reaction" thus formed produces energy in the form of light and heat.
The light so
produced is UV at 253.7 nm. As this wave length hits the phosphors,
materials that are
capable of converting wavelengths from short UV to longer visible wave
lengths, there is a
change in the type of light. In other words these phosphors are excited to
fluorescence by
UV to the proper wave length.

Some known examples of phosphors and their colors

Cadmium Borate = Pink

Calcium Halophospahte = White

Calcium Silicate = Orange

Calcium Tungstate = Blue

Magnesium Tungstate = Bluish White

Strontium Halophosphate = Light Green

Zinc Silicate = Green


Please consult

GTE Sylvania Engineering Bulletin 0-341 (version 1 & 2 ), Fluorescent
Lamps, 22 pages



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Wow....

Yes, but not the Argon, it does not get excited enough and produces nil light in fluro's
and is why there is no Argon peak in a fluro SED curve. Mercury produces most of the
light, say + 95 %. and there is some temporary ionization, there has to be, if not where
do all the electrons come from that are flying around. Ionization is when something losses
or gains an electron. Even once ionized the electrons can fall/come back into orbit..


"These electrons
travel at high speed from one electrode to another."

"This release of electrons from Mercury produces UV light"
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"Pszemol" wrote in message ...
: Right - I was mistaken - atoms of gases in the tube do not get
: ionized but only get excited and then when electrons return to their
: original state they emit UV - sorry Boomer, you are still The Oracle! :-))

Boomer wrote:

Yes, but not the Argon, it does not get excited enough and produces nil light in fluro's
and is why there is no Argon peak in a fluro SED curve. Mercury produces most of the
light, say + 95 %. and there is some temporary ionization, there has to be, if not where
do all the electrons come from that are flying around. Ionization is when something losses
or gains an electron. Even once ionized the electrons can fall/come back into orbit..


..... and all this proves that overdriven NO bulbs are perfect spectrum-wise and last exactly
180 days before they must be replaced! VBG

Marc

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"Marc Levenson" wrote in message
...


VHO have to be replaced every 6 months.


over on RC someone just told me that with electronic ballast that the VHO's
will last a year.........any truth to it?

curious as I prefer the looks of VHO's over PC's but my PC's last a year and
past VHO's were actually less then 6 months.

kc

I've done it for over a year. It works very well. The selection of vho
bulbs sucks but there are so many NO bulbs. I do not use normal 6500k
bulbs like some recommend. The color temperature doesn't tell you
anything, it's the light spectrum that matters. Photosynthesis mainly
happens at particular ranges of blue and orange. Normal 6500k bulbs
have little in this range -- their spectral output is mainly green &
yellow with a little blue and orange.

I replace NO bulbs every 5-6 months, compared with VHO @ 9-10 months.
The obvious sign is darkening of the ends.

I've kept clams, SPS & LPS under this setup. Look for bulbs with lots of
light around 430nm, 480, and 660. That's key and I think that's one
reason some people can't keep "difficult" stuff under fluorescents:
they're using the wrong bulbs.

JJ

Mort wrote:

Is anyone here familiar with overdriving NO fluorescent tubes?

I met a DIYer today (Marc, that's the guy I told you about with those5 stage
RO/DI units) that does this to his lamps.

Apparently you replace the balast with a higher output Electronic ballast
(About $10 from home depot) and it can double even triple the wattage of the
bulb. It operates at a higher frequency and does not shorten the life of
the bulb much at all. He's had a setup with a twin 30w 36" fixture that
with this balast is putting out 130watts after 1 year.

Will this trickery work for marine aquaria and corals???

~Mort

"If you say there is ionization, this is what I was saying before :-))"

But the gas in question was Argon, so you are still incorrect, at least for Argon :-))


"After all, I was not so wrong :-))))) LOL!"

OK, I'm going to let you slide buy today.........so now I will go pick on King Marc for
you ;-)


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"Pszemol" wrote in message ...
: "Boomer" wrote in message
...
: Yes, but not the Argon, it does not get excited enough and produces nil light in
fluro's
: and is why there is no Argon peak in a fluro SED curve. Mercury produces most of the
: light, say + 95 %. and there is some temporary ionization, there has to be, if not
where
: do all the electrons come from that are flying around. Ionization is when something
losses
: or gains an electron. Even once ionized the electrons can fall/come back into orbit..
:
: Maybe I agree with you too quickly then? :-)
: If you say there is ionization, this is what I was saying before :-))
: You said the current flow created plasma - what is plasma??
: Plasma is ionized gas :-)))
: If it was not ionized, how the current would flow?
: After initialy started, the voltage between ends of the tube is smaller,
: around 80-90V, not sufficient for electrons to jump from filament to filament :-)
: They would need some ionized medium to travel across in the tube...
:
: So, summing up: gases ARE ionized inside tube and they ARE producing UV rays.
:

"Boomer" wrote in message
...
"If you say there is ionization, this is what I was saying before :-))"

But the gas in question was Argon, so you are still incorrect, at least
for Argon :-))


"After all, I was not so wrong :-))))) LOL!"

OK, I'm going to let you slide buy today.........so now I will go pick on
King Marc for
you ;-)


--
Boomer


LoL, Run your majesty, RUN!

"Boomer" wrote in message ...
"If you say there is ionization, this is what I was saying before :-))"

But the gas in question was Argon, so you are still incorrect, at least for Argon :-))

I was not talking about Argon but about "gases in the tube" :-))
But I admit, I had no idea about the relation between pressure and output.
I was also correct with the three-phosphors tubes change color over time
as you stated each kind of phosphor has a different burn-out rate, so if
over time, let's say, 2 of 3 phosphors will burn out you will got one
phosphor tube after a couple of months, not three-phosphors tube like new one.
And overdriving any tube will dresticaly shorten its life - that is the fact.
So if 6-12 months rule apply to all "nominaly" driven tubes, those overdriven
will change over time much faster and need to be replaced more often to keep
their light-output parameters. I guess we both agree in that matter.
And this was the point of the main conversation, not the nature of fluoroscence :-)

"After all, I was not so wrong :-))))) LOL!"

OK, I'm going to let you slide buy today.........
so now I will go pick on King Marc for you ;-)

Thank you :-))

"I was not talking about Argon but about "gases in the tube" :-))"

OK, I'll let you off the hook since you say ""gases in the tube" , in which case the only
real "gas" is Mercury vapor and only Mercury vapor, with the very very small addition of
some of he emissive material being "gases".Aragon is a true gas and not a vapor.

One other thing;

"Plasma is ionized gas :-)))"

Well, that is only half of it. :-)) A Plasma is a stream of positively charged ions
accompanied by about equal proportions of electrons

"I was also correct with the three-phosphors tubes "

I know the guy personnel, that invented all of the tri lamps with the built in reflectors,
Dr. Perry Thrasher, know matter what name is on the bulb. Perry has left the company ,do
to illness and I haven't found out where he went other than California for health reasons.
Me and JB ( John Burleson) had the first sets :-)

http://www.light-sources.com/


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"Pszemol" wrote in message ...
: "Boomer" wrote in message
...
: "If you say there is ionization, this is what I was saying before :-))"
:
: But the gas in question was Argon, so you are still incorrect, at least for Argon :-))
:
: I was not talking about Argon but about "gases in the tube" :-))
: But I admit, I had no idea about the relation between pressure and output.
: I was also correct with the three-phosphors tubes change color over time
: as you stated each kind of phosphor has a different burn-out rate, so if
: over time, let's say, 2 of 3 phosphors will burn out you will got one
: phosphor tube after a couple of months, not three-phosphors tube like new one.
: And overdriving any tube will dresticaly shorten its life - that is the fact.
: So if 6-12 months rule apply to all "nominaly" driven tubes, those overdriven
: will change over time much faster and need to be replaced more often to keep
: their light-output parameters. I guess we both agree in that matter.
: And this was the point of the main conversation, not the nature of fluoroscence :-)
:
: "After all, I was not so wrong :-))))) LOL!"
:
: OK, I'm going to let you slide buy today.........
: so now I will go pick on King Marc for you ;-)
:
: Thank you :-))

"Boomer" wrote in message ...
"I was not talking about Argon but about "gases in the tube" :-))"

OK, I'll let you off the hook since you say ""gases in the tube" , in which case the only
real "gas" is Mercury vapor and only Mercury vapor, with the very very small addition of
some of he emissive material being "gases".

Ok, thank you for your mercy ;-)

Aragon is a true gas and not a vapor.

I do not like the "true gas" term... How do you define it?
Gas is gas :-) There is no true gas or false gas :-))
Almost every matter can change phase from state to liquid and gas
and all of it depends of the temperature. But I guess you call Argon
"a true gas" because it has gas phase in a room temperature, right? :-)

One other thing;

"Plasma is ionized gas :-)))"

Well, that is only half of it. :-)) A Plasma is a stream of positively charged
ions accompanied by about equal proportions of electrons

By "ionized gas" I ment whole gas in state of ionizations.
No ions alone, but with electrons detached from original atoms too :-)
But some of missunderstanding here can be derived from the fact,
that English is my second language, as it was stated correctly
on this ng recently :-))

"I was also correct with the three-phosphors tubes "

I know the guy personnel, that invented all of the tri lamps with the built in reflectors,
Dr. Perry Thrasher, know matter what name is on the bulb. Perry has left the company ,do
to illness and I haven't found out where he went other than California for health reasons.
Me and JB ( John Burleson) had the first sets :-)

http://www.light-sources.com/

Do I understand correctly you are saying design of gas discharge lamps are your profession?