Too many fish?

On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 18:45:39 GMT, Altum
wrote:

MangroveJack wrote:

snip
I forget exactly which treatment I used to treat tetra disease but I
can recall it was a green powder I'd have to get specifically from the
vets. Treatment was also trial and error but out of a shipment of 300
fish, I thought it was a good result to lose no more than 10 to 20
within the first week, by which time they had settled in and I felt
comfortable selling them again. With a huge Java Fern dominating the
tank, and a bright blue background, it looked spectacular.

This sounds like NetMax's stories of store tanks full of neons and
cardinals. I love how they shoal in stores.

So although I did run these setups (usually maximum 150 cardinals due
to cost) for several years, the numbers were admittedly constantly
being reduced by sales. I would say a three-foot (100 litre) aquarium
would be more suitable for a school of 300 tetras on a permanent basis,
with lots and lots of live plants, corydora catfish bobbing around on
the bottom, a pair of bristlenose in the driftwood features, and a
25-30% water change every week.

Wow. One of these years I'm going to set up a cardinal tank. People
overlook them because they're so common, but all of my community tanks
have had a shoal of cardinals or neons. Maybe I'll start replacing my
short-lived fish with cardinals as they die.

One of my little gray cells just went Ding - something about neons
preferring their water a little cooler, in the low seventies, than we
often keep our tropical tanks. Cardinals do better in the more common
tropical tank temperatures of 77 give or take a couple. I've been
lucky with my neons this time around - out of 15, I think I lost 3 in
the first week, and that was back in January. The dozen is not a
hundred, but it is enough to provide a handsome, graceful schoal.

-- Mister Gardener

Everything Aquaria & Tropical Fish at The Krib:
http://www.thekrib.com/
For Killfile FAQs visit
http://www.hyphenologist.co.uk/killfile/killfilefaq.htm

On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 13:46:50 -0500, "Koi-Lo"
wrote:

I love OE6. It's so easy to use. I tried a few others and couldn't figure
out how they work, probably because I couldn't understand the helpfiles.
None of them were intuitive. I wish I was more of a computer nerd.

I think the nerd factor is routinely appearing in the genetic code of
newborn babies these days.

-- Mister Gardener

On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 15:10:18 -0400, Mister Gardener
wrote:

On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 16:53:15 -0000, Thoeny none wrote:

"Koi-Lo" wrote in
:


Thanks heaps for the tip. I'm quite new to google groups still.
Always learning as they say... he not busy being born, is busy dying.
lol.
====================
There are free newsservers you can use which are 100% better than
posting through Google. There are a few you don't even need to sigh
up for - just add them to OE and off you go! :-)


I use Xnews it is free and works great. Personally just never could stand
OE.

That is if you IP offers newsgroups.

Good newsreader, and still free. Quite similar to Agent in its layout,
if I recall. I love Agent, but I loved it more back when it was free.

Talking to myself - the killfile feature in Agent is no longer
available in the Free Agent version. Which is why I used Xnews for a
while until I coughed up the $29 bucks to make Free Agent full Agent.

-- Mister Gardener

Everything Aquaria & Tropical Fish at The Krib:
http://www.thekrib.com/
For Killfile FAQs visit
http://www.hyphenologist.co.uk/killfile/killfilefaq.htm

"Jay Kaner" wrote in message
...

"Nikki" wrote

Its a nice hobby to have.....relaxing when things are going well,
stressful other times, but always enjoyable

Yeah, I'm enjoying it immensely. It was a bit of an impulse buy. I've
always enjoyed looking at tropical fish in other peoples tanks...then a
fella i work with's neighbour was selling his because he was moving into a
retirement home. It was a really good set up for the price, so I thought
why not!!!

And dont feel bad about it, at least you took the time to find out what
was best for them, and are going to invest in a better tank, more then
what a lot of people do....so its all good

Yeah, well, I got a bit carried away with the fish at first. It was great
fun going around the pet shops with my daughter, letting her choose the
fish for the tank. But now I know it's going to be a perminent addition
to our lives I thought I'd better start looking at how to care for them
properly. I would with any pet. And NG's like this are the perfect place
to learn and get advice from, so here I am.

I am in complete understading about kids & goldfish, i started my son a
goldfish tank with moors, fantail, redcaps, telescope eyes, and he enjoys
them so much, now he has me talked into having a pond in the summer for
them.

Heh!!! It's great. My little one loves it. She'll love it even more
when I get the bigger tank. That one will be mine and i'll 'give' her
this one with the cold water fish to look after...because she's a 'big
girl' now!! lol.

Be careful, a friend of mine had his "big girl" dump a whole can of flakes
in "her' tank one time and a bottle of perfume another time. Needless to
say, the take was moved.


She likes those fish more anyway, because of the way they 'interact' more
with the nibbling and the taking food from her fingertips.

Watch the betta while in the tank with the goldfish......sometimes they
get picky

Right. Will do. Tho' I have to say out of all the fish in the tank, the
betta is *the* most chilled out of fish. I've never seen it swim
anything faster than a graceful stroll around the tank!! Even at feeding
time, all the other fish seem to get all excited but the betta just ambles
on up seemingly without a care in the world. He seems more Jamaican than
Japanese....

"Mister Gardener" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 13:46:50 -0500, "Koi-Lo"
wrote:

I love OE6. It's so easy to use. I tried a few others and couldn't
figure
out how they work, probably because I couldn't understand the helpfiles.
None of them were intuitive. I wish I was more of a computer nerd.

I think the nerd factor is routinely appearing in the genetic code of
newborn babies these days.

-- Mister Gardener
========================
GOOD! :-))) That means bigger and better computer programmers and
designers tomorrow.......
--
Koi-Lo....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 17:56:33 -0500, "Koi-Lo"
wrote:


"Mister Gardener" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 13:46:50 -0500, "Koi-Lo"
wrote:

I love OE6. It's so easy to use. I tried a few others and couldn't
figure
out how they work, probably because I couldn't understand the helpfiles.
None of them were intuitive. I wish I was more of a computer nerd.

I think the nerd factor is routinely appearing in the genetic code of
newborn babies these days.

-- Mister Gardener
========================
GOOD! :-))) That means bigger and better computer programmers and
designers tomorrow.......

Yeah, well, that means first we have to potty train them, then get
them to stop drooling all down their chins. Or do we?

-- Mister Gardener

"MangroveJack" wrote in message
ups.com...
Maaate... you got to consider the types of fish you have and the types
of fish you want.

Well... i will from now on... ;-)

While it's fair to say that most fish adapt to
another's ideal conditions if the environment is kept constant, the
optimum way to keep different species is according to their most ideal
conditions.

I did get a bit carried away at first. The newness. The choosing of fish
with the kid. The advice off the guy i bought the set up from...
Y'know...


It is really quite silly even considering adding "warm-water,
soft-acidic" fish (neon tetras, red-tail sharks etc) to "cold-water,
hard-alkaline" fish (golfish, live-bearers etc)environments.

A little too late now... But that will be remedied somewhat when i get the
bigger tank.

The guy said it would be ok to buy tropical fish because he'd put the heater
in for the betta. And that's what we did. Obviously now, it's becoming
apparent there's more to it than just buying the prettiest fish and, like i
said, i'll bear that in mind in the future. The main reason for this post
is I don't understand what you mean with the water.

"Warm water, soft-acidic" "Cold water, hard-alkaline" I mean, surely it's
the same water...just warmed up?? Isn't it? Warm or cold, it comes from
the same tap?

More fish basically means more maintainance. You might get away with
doing third water change every month with just a couple of guppies, but
with a small, highly-stocked aquarium, you'd be mad not to do a third
water change every week, with alternative gravel-syphons one week and
filter-cleanse in removed aquarium water the other week.

That's not a problem. And now i know it's ok to leave the fish in while i
do this, it makes it even easier!!

You'd probably also need to add some sort of buffer to the water to
keep the Ph constant. I always use "marine grit" which helps keep the
alkalinity high which is how the tap-water is to begin with, and always
add a bit of salt to keep the water hardened for the live-bearers and
goldfish and prevent fungals on the fish who prefer softer, more acidic
water, who are more prone to disease.


At the end of the day, it's not really the size of the aquarium which
matters, so long as the inhabitants all get along reasonably well, or
have so many opponents they have no choice but to get along. What's
most important is the AMOUNT OF WATER they are in over what period of
time. Changing ten percent every day would be highly ideal, or even
better, a constant trickle-flow replacement like in a natural stream
would be best.... anything which keeps everything CONSTANT, not
fluctuating from extremely acidic one day, to alkaline the next, to
over-saturated with wastes and uneaten food another. Minimal feeding,
regular water-change, and you should be able to fit in an extra 10
neon-sized fish (though personally I'd go for something more suited to
your hard-alkaline dominant situation).

How do you know it's an hard- alkaline dominant situation? I mean in all
honesty i've no idea what the water's like. Is there a testing kit to find
out?

I've kept several hundred neon tetras very succesfully in an aquarium
that size before, along with a male betta and a few corys and
bristleys. I would never have thought to put any oxygen-hungry goldfish
in with them, though.

Like i said, the black moors, goldfish, black widow and betta were already
in the tank together when i bought it

Get another aquarium if you are serious about
keeping warm-water soft-acidic type fish.

Yep, that's what i'm going to do as soon as funds permit. Obviously I've a
family to feed, mortgage to pay and bills all fighting for me money.
There's a large record collection somewhere in there too.
And an unwillingness to work overtime unless i really, really, *really* have
to, doesn't help matters...but I will get another tank asap.

When you say "warm water soft-acidic type fish" do you mean, in general, the
'tropical' fish?

Once again, thanks for the advice. It is appreciated.

Jay Kaner wrote:
The main reason for this post
is I don't understand what you mean with the water.

"Warm water, soft-acidic" "Cold water, hard-alkaline" I mean, surely it's
the same water...just warmed up?? Isn't it? Warm or cold, it comes from
the same tap?


Pure water such as distilled water is the same everywhere, but in nature
there is always some dissolved material in the water. Commonly there is
dissolved limestone from the soil and rocks water travels over, and this
produces dissolved carbonates or "carbonate hardness". Other dissolved
rocks/minerals such as sulphates (gypsum, anhydrite...) give the water
"general hardness". Then there are dissolved organics, especially in
somewhat swampy environments, that give the water a light brownish tinge
and add acidity.

Tap water varies according to the geology of your area. Currently I'm in
an area of granitic rocks and the tap water is soft. Previously I had a
well that drew water from a limestone aquifer, and that water was very hard.

pH is hydrogen ion concentration (acidity, alkalinity) with pH 7.0 being
"neutral". Soft waters tend to become acidic (pH 7) due to fish
wastes. "Hard" waters tend to have lots of dissolved carbonate and tend
to be alkaline, pH 7. For most fresh water aquarium fish a pH of 6.5
to 8 should be ok, and carbonate hardness should be 50 parts per
million calcium carbonate. There are test kits for all these things; I
use an old Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Inc tap water test kit.

Different fish come from different natural environments so may do better
in specific water chemistry - check fish books such as Baensch's atlas.
Because many fish now come from breeders, they may not have grown up in
water like they'd have in nature, though.

I guess the biggest thing about water chemistry, as for temperature, is
to avoid sudden changes. In addition to the water chemistry I mentioned,
there's dissolved salt, nitrate etc. These things should be at low
levels in tap water but may accumulate in the aquarium, for example by
addition of salt to treat fish illness. Regular partial water changes
should keep your aquarium water similar to your tap water - a good thing.

On Sun, 16 Apr 2006 14:22:31 GMT, "Jay Kaner" wrote:


"MangroveJack" wrote in message
oups.com...
Maaate... you got to consider the types of fish you have and the types
of fish you want.

Well... i will from now on... ;-)

While it's fair to say that most fish adapt to
another's ideal conditions if the environment is kept constant, the
optimum way to keep different species is according to their most ideal
conditions.

I did get a bit carried away at first. The newness. The choosing of fish
with the kid. The advice off the guy i bought the set up from...
Y'know...


It is really quite silly even considering adding "warm-water,
soft-acidic" fish (neon tetras, red-tail sharks etc) to "cold-water,
hard-alkaline" fish (golfish, live-bearers etc)environments.

A little too late now... But that will be remedied somewhat when i get the
bigger tank.

The guy said it would be ok to buy tropical fish because he'd put the heater
in for the betta. And that's what we did. Obviously now, it's becoming
apparent there's more to it than just buying the prettiest fish and, like i
said, i'll bear that in mind in the future. The main reason for this post
is I don't understand what you mean with the water.

"Warm water, soft-acidic" "Cold water, hard-alkaline" I mean, surely it's
the same water...just warmed up?? Isn't it? Warm or cold, it comes from
the same tap?

More fish basically means more maintainance. You might get away with
doing third water change every month with just a couple of guppies, but
with a small, highly-stocked aquarium, you'd be mad not to do a third
water change every week, with alternative gravel-syphons one week and
filter-cleanse in removed aquarium water the other week.

That's not a problem. And now i know it's ok to leave the fish in while i
do this, it makes it even easier!!

You'd probably also need to add some sort of buffer to the water to
keep the Ph constant. I always use "marine grit" which helps keep the
alkalinity high which is how the tap-water is to begin with, and always
add a bit of salt to keep the water hardened for the live-bearers and
goldfish and prevent fungals on the fish who prefer softer, more acidic
water, who are more prone to disease.


At the end of the day, it's not really the size of the aquarium which
matters, so long as the inhabitants all get along reasonably well, or
have so many opponents they have no choice but to get along. What's
most important is the AMOUNT OF WATER they are in over what period of
time. Changing ten percent every day would be highly ideal, or even
better, a constant trickle-flow replacement like in a natural stream
would be best.... anything which keeps everything CONSTANT, not
fluctuating from extremely acidic one day, to alkaline the next, to
over-saturated with wastes and uneaten food another. Minimal feeding,
regular water-change, and you should be able to fit in an extra 10
neon-sized fish (though personally I'd go for something more suited to
your hard-alkaline dominant situation).

How do you know it's an hard- alkaline dominant situation? I mean in all
honesty i've no idea what the water's like. Is there a testing kit to find
out?

I've kept several hundred neon tetras very succesfully in an aquarium
that size before, along with a male betta and a few corys and
bristleys. I would never have thought to put any oxygen-hungry goldfish
in with them, though.

Like i said, the black moors, goldfish, black widow and betta were already
in the tank together when i bought it

Get another aquarium if you are serious about
keeping warm-water soft-acidic type fish.

Yep, that's what i'm going to do as soon as funds permit. Obviously I've a
family to feed, mortgage to pay and bills all fighting for me money.
There's a large record collection somewhere in there too.
And an unwillingness to work overtime unless i really, really, *really* have
to, doesn't help matters...but I will get another tank asap.

When you say "warm water soft-acidic type fish" do you mean, in general, the
'tropical' fish?

Once again, thanks for the advice. It is appreciated.


Yes, you need to buy a water testing kit. A kit that measures pH,
Ammonia, Nitrites, Hardness. You can probably get your local pet
retailer to test your water for you - it's good to get a baseline test
on your water pH an Hardness coming out of the tap, as well as
measuring the above in your tanks on a regular basis. A basic test kit
will run you about 20 bucks. And don't accept the pet store's reading
as "your water's fine", but ask him to write down the results of each
test.

Meanwhile, you can find lots to read at The Krib.

-- Mister Gardener

Everything Aquaria & Tropical Fish at The Krib:
http://www.thekrib.com/

On Sun, 16 Apr 2006 11:33:48 -0400, Mister Gardener
wrote:

On Sun, 16 Apr 2006 14:22:31 GMT, "Jay Kaner" wrote:

How do you know it's an hard- alkaline dominant situation? I mean in all
honesty i've no idea what the water's like. Is there a testing kit to find
out?

You can also get some information from your water company, if your
water is supplied by a company rather than a well. They make printed
reports available quite regularly, you can get these reports either
from their website or by calling and asking for one. My own company
gets the info for me when I call - the last time I called I talked
with a very nice young woman who after my first question asked, "you
have aquariums, right?" She was my kind of helper. When I mentioned
the test kit in a previous post, I left out Hardness - this is not
included in the most common kits, like the API Freshwater Test Kit,
and your water company can tell you your hardness. If the hardness is
satisfactory to you, then you can count on it remaining stable from
your faucet and you won't need to test for it too often. Often, simply
knowing whether your water is soft, medium, or hard is enough to get
your started. I've never purchased a hardness kit - I always take a
sample of my tap water to my pet shop guy about twice a year and he
tests it for me. The last time I did this, he said, "you're the only
customer who cares about hardness, here, take the kit." So now I have
a freebie hardness kit. You probably won't be so lucky. But you can
save a few bucks by not buying the hardness kit right away. The other
stuff is more important. For now.

-- Mister Gardener