4 foot high tank

Wayne your a wally hey.
Seriously......
Cindy it won't work so well because the sponge on most airfilters is very
fine. These clog very rapidly when used with a powerhead and so need to be
cleaned regularily to maintain powerhead water flow.
When powered by air the water flows thru the sponge slowly meaning the
bacteria have lots of contact time with the water in which to fix ammonia
and nitrite.
Explain these many reasons wayne?
I mean yea shoot me down if you have too but christ at least give a reason
eh?
more than one way to skin a cat mate and when you stock tanks with a good
amount of life the most important thing to keep oxygen levels up is a nice
disturbed splashy surface.
What is more important than filter type is to match bacteria colonys to the
amount you feed the tank. As long as your filters provide sufficient surface
area for the needed bacteria to colonise and ya never kill them all washing
under a tap or something then the nitrate cycle is taken out of the equation
as a worry.
People scared of salt creep should grow up
I think piscine tb is a much more worthy concern
heh




"Wayne Sallee" wrote in message
link.net...
That would be better in that it would not cause salt creep, or splashing,
but it still is not the way to go for a reef tank for many reasons.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



Cindy wrote on 10/13/2006 8:13 PM:
* Wayne Sallee wrote, On 10/13/2006 6:42 PM:
Sponge filtering is not a possibility that you want to use with a salt
water aquarium, much less a reef tank. They do however have a lot of
benefits for breeder tanks in fresh water, and some with salt water fry
tanks, but such a salt water tank would have lots of salt creep, and any
electrical cords or anything else electrical would be wet with salt
water.

Couldn't you use a sponge filter with a powerhead instead of air pump?

* swarvegorilla wrote, On 10/15/2006 12:17 AM:
Wayne your a wally hey.
Seriously......
Cindy it won't work so well because the sponge on most airfilters is very
fine. These clog very rapidly when used with a powerhead and so need to be
cleaned regularily to maintain powerhead water flow.

That would make sense. Thanks!

When powered by air the water flows thru the sponge slowly meaning the
bacteria have lots of contact time with the water in which to fix ammonia
and nitrite.

I ran my first sal****er tank, 50 gallons, with an UG filter, oyster shell
substrate, Dynamaster II air pump and glass bead airstones. Yeah, that was a
long time ago....
Salt creep is a pain in the butt, but I had less problems with my tank with all
that nice air, and I NEVER had to fight cyanobacteria, which has been a constant
problem for me lately.

Explain these many reasons wayne?
I mean yea shoot me down if you have too but christ at least give a reason
eh?
more than one way to skin a cat mate and when you stock tanks with a good
amount of life the most important thing to keep oxygen levels up is a nice
disturbed splashy surface.
What is more important than filter type is to match bacteria colonys to the
amount you feed the tank. As long as your filters provide sufficient surface
area for the needed bacteria to colonise and ya never kill them all washing
under a tap or something then the nitrate cycle is taken out of the equation
as a worry.
People scared of salt creep should grow up
I think piscine tb is a much more worthy concern
heh

"swarvegorilla" wrote in message ...
When powered by air the water flows thru the sponge slowly
meaning the bacteria have lots of contact time with the water
in which to fix ammonia and nitrite.

Why would we care about their contact time ?

Do you suggest that a similar filter with high
flow, and "shorter contact time" would be less
efficient ? If so, why do you think this way?
(let's forget about the clogging factor for a second...)

"Cindy" wrote in message . net...
Salt creep is a pain in the butt, but I had less problems with my tank with all
that nice air, and I NEVER had to fight cyanobacteria, which has been
a constant problem for me lately.

Cyanobacteria becomes a problem in fish tanks, where there is
not enough nitrates but large amounts of phosphates...

UGF produces a lot of nitrates, similarly like sponge and canister fiters
so you will less likely have problems with cyanobacteria, but more likely
with ugly green hair algae. I am not sure what algae looks uglier to be honest...

"Pszemol" wrote in message
...
"Cindy" wrote in message
. net...
Salt creep is a pain in the butt, but I had less problems with my tank
with all that nice air, and I NEVER had to fight cyanobacteria, which has
been
a constant problem for me lately.

Cyanobacteria becomes a problem in fish tanks, where there is
not enough nitrates but large amounts of phosphates...

UGF produces a lot of nitrates, similarly like sponge and canister fiters
so you will less likely have problems with cyanobacteria, but more likely
with ugly green hair algae. I am not sure what algae looks uglier to be
honest...

Really it depends what media your cannisters are packed with and what your
maintenence shedule is.
example
I have a double fbf, the first chamber is just sand but the next is full of
purigen.
so yes still a nitrate factory but the second chamber helps absorb.
Algae is a number one concern in marine tanks.
It shouldn't be but it is.
Even the barrier reef is mainly algae species, coral is a distant second.
The only point I wanted to make is that with the proper dedication and
research there is no reason a coupla cycled air sponge filters could not
support a nice tank of damsels, pair clowns, dottyback, maybe a bicolour
angel and lawn mower blenny.
If it's going to be a full reef then you need to get serious on your
equipment level.
chillers and lights need to be bought
suppliments to promote coral growth over algae
all sorts crap.
but for a low tech tank, patience and good husbandry is enuf.
'Display' is a sense of mind. Yes maybe a tank in a hotel is going to have
to be 'a slice of the ocean' with no visable filters and exotic corals.
but a tank in the living room, stocked with conscienscously chosen fish that
do well in captivity, and a bit of maintenence is also what I call a
display.
If it's your first tank, I say set up a little cheap one.
My first marine tank was maybe 2 foot and had a crab in it. It cost me
maybe$20 in total and that includes second hand tank, powerhead filter and a
live crab from fish markets.
I had a world of fun keeping salt levels right due to huge evap, and waiting
out the nitrate cycle.
Most of the drawbacks of large tanks are financial I tell ya.
heh heh
point is I setup a cheap tank and did research and tested water.
I never killed a fish in that tank.
I admit it ended up with a pair of unkillable clowns for ages tho.
If however it was not for me.
I wouldn't have spent ALL me cash and still would have had the experience.

That said bring on the requirements as you see them for a 'display' tank
Don't forget the UVC and kalk dosers.

Yes, yes I do.
contact time is very important.
water blasting thru media too fast will not allow bacteria sufficent time to
eat nutrients in the water.
Yes mechanical filters work better with higher filter flows and up to a
point yes more is removed but then it drops right off.
Almost a different topic but matching flow rate on a home made fbf to get
the best ammonia/nitrite take up is a fiddly business!
An extreme example of contact time is a trickle filter where water is slowed
to drips thru biological media.
A good example of contact time optimization in commercial filters is the
ehiem family of filters.
While not as powerful in flowrates as comparable brands the flow has been
matched to the media to provide the best contact time to the bacteria.
Now all that said, no it's not going to be much of a problem when used as a
sort of prefilter on a powerhead up to 1000 lph but after that it's going to
be too fast or squashed flat.
For that sort of water flow you want a stiffer coarser sponge, most smaller
sponge's used with air filters are really really small pored.
Get a coarser sponge and it matters not, but then wouldn't you just buy a
powerhead pump with attached sponge that a company has already matched to
the flowrate?
You want good waterflow around L/R if that is your filtration and also to
keep corals happy
but biological filtration occurs best slowly
delicate colonys building on top of each other forming matts of brown crap
charming I know
should visit a sewrage farm some time
will be quite the bacteria eduaction for you!




"Pszemol" wrote in message
...
"swarvegorilla" wrote in message
...
When powered by air the water flows thru the sponge slowly
meaning the bacteria have lots of contact time with the water
in which to fix ammonia and nitrite.

Why would we care about their contact time ?

Do you suggest that a similar filter with high
flow, and "shorter contact time" would be less
efficient ? If so, why do you think this way?
(let's forget about the clogging factor for a second...)

"swarvegorilla" wrote in message ...
Even the barrier reef is mainly algae species, coral is a distant second.

It is very hard to compare real ocean to our fish tanks...

The only point I wanted to make is that with the proper dedication and
research there is no reason a coupla cycled air sponge filters could not
support a nice tank of damsels, pair clowns, dottyback, maybe a bicolour
angel and lawn mower blenny.

I would always like such statements backed up with a nice pictures
showing beautiful tanks with no problematic algae running this way :-)
How are you progressing in making such photos of your tanks ?

What are the levels of nitrates and phosphates in your tanks ?
What is your maintenance schedule ? How often do you play with
the tanks ? How big is the tank from the above mentioned example ?

If it's going to be a full reef then you need to get serious on your
equipment level.
chillers and lights need to be bought
suppliments to promote coral growth over algae
all sorts crap.

What supplements would you add ?
How do they work in supporting corals to outcompete algae in our tanks?

'Display' is a sense of mind. Yes maybe a tank in a hotel is going to have
to be 'a slice of the ocean' with no visable filters and exotic corals.
but a tank in the living room, stocked with conscienscously chosen fish that
do well in captivity, and a bit of maintenence is also what I call a
display.

What I say by "display" is the tank which has PRIMARY concern: aesthetics.
It simply has to LOOK nice.

The different story is for example in breeding tanks or grow up tanks...
In such tanks you do not care much about how do they look - what you
care for is that you can cram a lot of fish in smalles possible tank
without sacrificing their health and well being... So if you have to
add big and ugly filter in the center of the tank - do it... Again, you
do not care about aesthetics in a grow-up tanks. It can be ugly but
it has to work. Opposite to your show tank in living room - it cannot be
an eyesore with visible plumbing or a lot of hair algae covering rocks.

That said bring on the requirements as you see them for a 'display' tank
Don't forget the UVC and kalk dosers.


UVC is a no-no for a reef tank.
You want to encourage the plankton growth in the water
instead of killing it with UVC lamp...
You filter feeding animals like clams, scallops, feather dusters,
sponges will feed on unicellular algae in the water preventing the
green water problems you might want to fight withUVC lamp in FO tanks.

Your speech proves your lack of experience with reef tanks.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



swarvegorilla wrote on 10/15/2006 1:09 AM:
?
dude have you ever heard of a 90 degree elbow?
I think a lot of the industry would be shocked to hear that air powered
sponge filters are no good for marine.
For fish only they are cheap, easy and last for yonks. For reef where water
movement is more important and maybe you'd like less filter bacteria and
more live rock life to try drop nitrates.
But that only works with low stocking levels.
With a tall tank despite usual wisdom saying that it should be a very light
stocking due to surface area, I would prob overstock it a bit.
Tall tanks need more fish to look good. It means more water changes and more
feeding though.
A good airpump can run a few filters and the skimmer.
Salt creep is pretty easy to take care of, good lids and a wipe or 2
the point I was trying to make is that
A marine tank can be set up on any budget.
With a powerhead or 2 to give the water movement needed there is no reason
sponge air filters cannot be used.
Yes maybe you may have to consider filter placement to cut down on salt
creep but it's the same nitrate cycle mate.
A powerhead pumping water thru a pipe into a bucket of small coral chunks
and draining out the bottem into the tank makes an ok filter.
Keep in mind that with good liverock and powerhead placement, plus the
advantage of strong lights the tank will have other natural forms of
bio-filtration occuring.
Bio accumulation of nutrients into algae,bacteria mulm or in O2 zeron
environs into N2 gas.
What is more important than having the latest gear is having good husbandry
practises with the tools at hand.
Never believe the hype I say, good food, nice clean warm water and regular
water changes.
If you are going to shoot for the moon, buy your liverock and coral foods
and use them. Have a local fish geek design your filter and lights setup.
And get on good terms with a good local lfs so you can cherry pick the best
liverock out of a big new shipment for your initial stocking of the tank
with rock.





"Wayne Sallee" wrote in message
link.net...
Sponge filtering is not a possibility that you want to use with a salt
water aquarium, much less a reef tank. They do however have a lot of
benefits for breeder tanks in fresh water, and some with salt water fry
tanks, but such a salt water tank would have lots of salt creep, and any
electrical cords or anything else electrical would be wet with salt water.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



Cindy wrote on 10/13/2006 7:18 PM:
* Pszemol wrote, On 10/13/2006 9:36 AM:
"swarvegorilla" wrote in message
...
no not show tanks, selling tanks
I am sure the original poster was thinking about a show tank,
not quarantine, not grow-up tank, not wholeseller tank...
Show tanks are run with different equipment, so let's not mix this.
The original poster isn't the only one reading, and I for one like to
learn ALL the possibilities.

Cindy

Cindy wrote on 10/15/2006 2:20 AM:
I NEVER had to fight cyanobacteria,
which has been a constant problem for me lately.

That's because cyanobacteria does not like higher nitrates.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets

"swarvegorilla" wrote in message ...
Yes, yes I do.
contact time is very important.
water blasting thru media too fast will not allow
bacteria sufficent time to eat nutrients in the water.
[...]
but biological filtration occurs best slowly
delicate colonys building on top of each other
forming matts of brown crap
charming I know
should visit a sewrage farm some time
will be quite the bacteria eduaction for you!

Sewage farm and aquarium filter have big difference:
Sewage is pass through, water passes one time only.
Aquarium filter works in closed circuit loop...

And this single difference is very important!

When you have single pass filter - then yes, you
want long contact time for the bacteria to use up
all the nutrients from water and leave water pure.
When you have closed circuit loop, like in the aquarium,
it does not matter really if you put 10 gph through
the filter or 100 gph the if not all nutrients
will be removed in the first pass, than you have
10 more chances - the same water passes through the
filter several times per hour!

I would rather say contact time is NOT important.
What is important is that bacteria will have enough
oxygen in the whole volume of the filter media...
When you restrict flow in quest to get long contact
time you can make the last part of the filter
lack oxygen and bacteria will not work since
nitrification requires a lot of oxygen to consume.
On the outlet of the filter with low flow bacteria
will starve. We do not want this to happen.
We would rather give the filter maximum flow it
can handle to make sure bacteria in its whole volume
of its filtration media is well fed and oxygenated.