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Should BAC limits be left up to the individual driver?



 
 
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  #131  
Old January 13th 05, 10:26 AM
Brent P
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In article >, C.H. wrote:
> On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 02:41:10 -0600, Brent P wrote:
>
>> You're weak.


> No, I am not. And I bet, that if you were in my situation you would react
> to this specific topic quite the same way I did. If you want to, I'll tell
> you, why, but only by email, I will not post anything about it.


I don't care.

>> You tried to play hardball with the wrong person.


> I am not trying to play hardball with anyone. I asked a question in good
> faith, not thinking that you might recognize yourself so far in it that
> you would feel the need to retaliate, least of all that you would do this.


This is not a good faith question, it's an insult/accusation veiled as a
question:

-> From: "C.H." >
-> Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving,misc.transport.road,alt.true-crime
-> Subject: Should BAC limits be left up to the individual driver?
-> Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:09:56 -0800
-> Message-ID: >
<...>
-> One question: Do you really need alcohol so bad that you are willing to
-> risk your life and others'?

-> From: "C.H." >
-> Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving,misc.transport.road,alt.true-crime
-> Subject: Should BAC limits be left up to the individual driver?
-> Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 20:31:06 -0800
-> Message-ID: >
<...>
-> What you suffer from is called denial. You have a problem and you simply
-> don't want to see it and thus every evidence of this problem must be
-> wrong.
<...>
-> but if you really think drinking
-> and driving is harmless, you need a reality check, and you need it before
-> you hurt someone.


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  #132  
Old January 13th 05, 01:02 PM
ParrotRob
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"C.H." > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 21:08:53 -0600, Brent P wrote:
>
>> In article >, C.H. wrote:
>>
>>>> Fine, convince me.

>>
>>> Half of all accidents at night at least alcohol related. 1000 of 6000
>>> traffic deaths per year definitely alcohol related with an unknown but
>>> supposedly rather large number of cases not checked. German TUEV
>>> suspects
>>> that almost half of all fatal accidents are either alcohol or drug
>>> related.

>>
>> Alcohol related. This is like 'speed related'.

>
> Alcohol related means either the direct cause of the accident was alcohol,
> or that alcohol at least precluded the driver from fixing the situation by
> making an evasive maneuver.
>
>> Totally sober moron driver runs a red light and hits a pedestrian
>> crossing the street on his walk signal. The ped had 2 beers in the last
>> hour and half. Bingo alcohol related.

>
> The German police is significantly more thorough than the police around
> here in determining the real cause of the crash even if one or both
> drivers were intoxicated. So the numbers are pretty accurate.
>
>>> http://www.psy-online.de/mpu/wirkung.htm

>>
>> A flyer in German. the kind of agenda driven thing we see here in the
>> USA all the time.

>
> The data is taken from the state medical psychological assessment (MPU)
> that a drunk driver has to go through if he wants his license back after
> a DUI. So it is pretty accurate.
>
>>> Quote:
>>> From .03%: Distances are estimated wrong

>>
>> I can't estimate distances in feet or meters correctly SOBER. I can
>> estimate them in my-car-can-stop-from-here-to-there just fine.

>
> ... and this stopping distance estimation capability drastically decreases
> from .03%. Maybe you think you still can do it but real life tests have
> shown again and again that people in reality can't.
>
>>> From .05%: Red doesn't register with the brain any more.

>>
>> I find this very hard to believe.

>
> Nevertheless it is true. Red loses its signal function (you still can tell
> it is red after looking at it for a bit but the 'eeek, the light is red'
> goes away, thus the risk of running a red light drastically increases).
>
>>> Bright-dark-reaction of the Iris slowed down

>>
>> Dangerously so? Slower than say an 80 year old compared with a 20 year
>> old?

>
> Yes, dangerously so, which is why at night in almost half of all fatal
> accidents at least one of the drivers was intoxicated.


Which means in OVER half, all of the drivers were lethally sober.

I love those stats: 87 people killed this year in XXX County! 31 of them
alcohol-related! - So let me get this straight, 56 of them were
sober-related? :-)


  #133  
Old January 13th 05, 01:02 PM
ParrotRob
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"C.H." > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 21:08:53 -0600, Brent P wrote:
>
>> In article >, C.H. wrote:
>>
>>>> Fine, convince me.

>>
>>> Half of all accidents at night at least alcohol related. 1000 of 6000
>>> traffic deaths per year definitely alcohol related with an unknown but
>>> supposedly rather large number of cases not checked. German TUEV
>>> suspects
>>> that almost half of all fatal accidents are either alcohol or drug
>>> related.

>>
>> Alcohol related. This is like 'speed related'.

>
> Alcohol related means either the direct cause of the accident was alcohol,
> or that alcohol at least precluded the driver from fixing the situation by
> making an evasive maneuver.
>
>> Totally sober moron driver runs a red light and hits a pedestrian
>> crossing the street on his walk signal. The ped had 2 beers in the last
>> hour and half. Bingo alcohol related.

>
> The German police is significantly more thorough than the police around
> here in determining the real cause of the crash even if one or both
> drivers were intoxicated. So the numbers are pretty accurate.
>
>>> http://www.psy-online.de/mpu/wirkung.htm

>>
>> A flyer in German. the kind of agenda driven thing we see here in the
>> USA all the time.

>
> The data is taken from the state medical psychological assessment (MPU)
> that a drunk driver has to go through if he wants his license back after
> a DUI. So it is pretty accurate.
>
>>> Quote:
>>> From .03%: Distances are estimated wrong

>>
>> I can't estimate distances in feet or meters correctly SOBER. I can
>> estimate them in my-car-can-stop-from-here-to-there just fine.

>
> ... and this stopping distance estimation capability drastically decreases
> from .03%. Maybe you think you still can do it but real life tests have
> shown again and again that people in reality can't.
>
>>> From .05%: Red doesn't register with the brain any more.

>>
>> I find this very hard to believe.

>
> Nevertheless it is true. Red loses its signal function (you still can tell
> it is red after looking at it for a bit but the 'eeek, the light is red'
> goes away, thus the risk of running a red light drastically increases).
>
>>> Bright-dark-reaction of the Iris slowed down

>>
>> Dangerously so? Slower than say an 80 year old compared with a 20 year
>> old?

>
> Yes, dangerously so, which is why at night in almost half of all fatal
> accidents at least one of the drivers was intoxicated.


Which means in OVER half, all of the drivers were lethally sober.

I love those stats: 87 people killed this year in XXX County! 31 of them
alcohol-related! - So let me get this straight, 56 of them were
sober-related? :-)


  #134  
Old January 13th 05, 01:09 PM
ParrotRob
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"C.H." > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 17:37:43 -0600, Brent P wrote:
>
>> In article >, C.H. wrote:
>>
>>> If you have 20 bucks to blow on alcohol and claim you don't have enough
>>> money for a cab you need to get your priorities straight.

>>
>> You don't seem to understand the concept that there are NO CABS. He could
>> have a $1000 to spend on a cab ride, but without the cabs being
>> around....

>
> Then call a friend and offer him a 20 to drive you to your bar. Or if you
> absolutely have to have alcohol at a bar, move somewhere where there are
> either taxicabs or bars in walking distance.


That's crazy talk. If I'm too drunk to drive I'm FAR too drunk to WALK
home! ;-)


  #135  
Old January 13th 05, 01:09 PM
ParrotRob
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Posts: n/a
Default

"C.H." > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 17:37:43 -0600, Brent P wrote:
>
>> In article >, C.H. wrote:
>>
>>> If you have 20 bucks to blow on alcohol and claim you don't have enough
>>> money for a cab you need to get your priorities straight.

>>
>> You don't seem to understand the concept that there are NO CABS. He could
>> have a $1000 to spend on a cab ride, but without the cabs being
>> around....

>
> Then call a friend and offer him a 20 to drive you to your bar. Or if you
> absolutely have to have alcohol at a bar, move somewhere where there are
> either taxicabs or bars in walking distance.


That's crazy talk. If I'm too drunk to drive I'm FAR too drunk to WALK
home! ;-)


  #136  
Old January 13th 05, 04:49 PM
Brent P
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In article >, C.H. wrote:
> On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 03:26:57 -0600, Brent P wrote:
>
>> I don't care.

>
> Well, that at least fits your personality.


this isn't about your personal motivation and you aren't going to share
it. So there is no reason to care about it.


  #137  
Old January 13th 05, 04:49 PM
Brent P
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Default

In article >, C.H. wrote:
> On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 03:26:57 -0600, Brent P wrote:
>
>> I don't care.

>
> Well, that at least fits your personality.


this isn't about your personal motivation and you aren't going to share
it. So there is no reason to care about it.


  #138  
Old January 13th 05, 05:07 PM
Matthew Russotto
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In article >,
C.H. > wrote:
>
>If you think an alcoholic has a choice (without getting help) you need to
>read up on the subject a bit (physical and mental drug dependency).


Of course the alcoholic has a choice. Simple one, really: to drink,
or not to drink. The complication is that the latter choice is
accompanied by far more pain than the former. It's still a choice.

  #139  
Old January 13th 05, 05:07 PM
Matthew Russotto
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In article >,
C.H. > wrote:
>
>If you think an alcoholic has a choice (without getting help) you need to
>read up on the subject a bit (physical and mental drug dependency).


Of course the alcoholic has a choice. Simple one, really: to drink,
or not to drink. The complication is that the latter choice is
accompanied by far more pain than the former. It's still a choice.

  #140  
Old January 13th 05, 05:13 PM
Matthew Russotto
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In article >,
C.H. > wrote:
>On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 13:13:49 -0600, Matthew Russotto wrote:
>
>> In article >,
>> C.H. > wrote:
>>>On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:29:59 -0700, Olaf Gustafson wrote:
>>>
>>>If you in any way feel compelled to drink you are an alcoholic, because
>>>that's what an alcoholic is, a person who _has_ to drink.

>>
>> You trivialize alcoholism. A desire to drink isn't alcoholism, any
>> more than a desire for ice cream is an addiction.

>
>Being compelled and having a desire are two different things. Please don't
>mix these up.


#1: It's not a matter of being compelled, it's a matter of _feeling_
compelled.

#2: In the widest sense -- and that IS how you used the term -- a
desire and a feeling of compulsion are the same thing.

>> It ain't quite that simple. I don't have to drink. But I want to
>> drink.

>
>Nothing wrong with that.


Except that you and the other neo-prohibitionists want to make it impractical.

>> I do have to drive if I want to get anywhere.

>
>No, you don't. There are taxicabs, public transportation or carpooling.


Thank you, Marie Antoinette.

>If you have 20 bucks to blow on alcohol and claim you don't have enough
>money for a cab you need to get your priorities straight.


Not a matter of 20 bucks. A matter of no cabs at all. And I rarely
spend $20 on alcohol for myself at a sitting. Besides, how am I going
to get my car back?

 




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