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Kaldis, OCD and You! <= what every sane person should know (was: Suspended license from another state)



 
 
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  #1  
Old September 10th 06, 11:58 PM posted to alt.law-enforcement,alt.true-crime,ga.general,misc.legal,rec.autos.driving
proffsl
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 132
Default Kaldis, OCD and You! <= what every sane person should know (was: Suspended license from another state)

Larry wrote:
> Vox Populi©" wrote:
> > Theodore A. Kaldis wrote:
> > > Kent Wills wrote:
> > > > Terry wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > How can I find out for sure without risking more trouble for
> > > > > my niece?
> > > >
> > > > Have a different officer run her license. If the information comes
> > > > back the same, then it's Georgia that made the mistake.
> > >
> > > Georgia can't suspend an Alabama licence, Einstein, they can
> > > only suspend an Alabama-licenced driver's privilege of driving in
> > > Georgia.

> >
> > But being there is an Interstate Drivers License Compact between
> > most states, a suspension in one state results in a suspension in
> > the others.

>
> That's not at all what the Interstate Drivers License Compact says.
>
> Among the 45 states that signed on to the compact, they simply
> *share* information with each other (and at least one other state -
> Massachusetts - shares information with all other states despite not
> singing on to the compact).
>
> What each other state does with information provided to it is up to each
> individual state. The IDLC says nothing about this, and each state can
> do whatever they want based on information they are told. For example,
> Kansas will revoke your license if you have a DWI conviction in another
> state, but will not revoke your license if another state issues an
> administrative suspension on your license or driving privileges.


This is the reason Driver Licensing as a Police Power is
UnConstitutional. Driver Licenses are wrongly assumed to be
Constitutional under Police Powers. But, Police Powers must be
composed of "uniform regulations" (Hendrick v Maryland). Yet, you
demonstrate by your own words above that Driver Licensing IS NOT
composed of "uniform regulations". Spicifically, what may get one's
driver licenses suspended in their own state does not necessary get an
out of state driver licenses suspended, and they may continue to drive
within the state that suspended it's own citizen's driver license.

For example: A Texas citizen has a Texas driver license. A Tennessee
citizen has a Tennessee driver license. One day, both drivers are
driving beside each other on a Texas highway, both drivers committing
the same traffic violation, and are stopped at the same time by the
same police officer. In Texas, that offense might get one's driver
license suspended. In Tennessee, it may not. Both drivers might be
equally fined, but Texas can not suspend a Tennessee driver license.
The Texas driver has his driver license suspended, and it is assumed he
can no longer legally drive, on Texas highways, or any other state's
highways. On the other hand, the Tennessee driver does not have their
driver license suspended, and it is assumed they may continue to
legally drive in their own state, in other states, and in Texas. Flat
out, this DOES NOT exhibit "uniform regulations".

"No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the
privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall
any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due
process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the
equal protection of the laws." -- 14th Amendment of the US Constitution

"In the absence of national legislation covering the subject, a state
may rightfully prescribe uniform regulations necessary for public
safety and order in respect to the operation upon its highways of all
motor vehicles,-those moving in interstate commerce as well as others."
- Hendrick v Maryland, 1915, http://laws.findlaw.com/us/235/610.html

Ads
  #2  
Old September 11th 06, 12:12 AM posted to alt.law-enforcement,alt.true-crime,ga.general,misc.legal,rec.autos.driving
Larry[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 613
Default Kaldis, OCD and You! <= what every sane person should know (was: Suspended license from another state)

In article . com>,
"proffsl" > wrote:

> Larry wrote:


> >
> > That's not at all what the Interstate Drivers License Compact says.
> >
> > Among the 45 states that signed on to the compact, they simply
> > *share* information with each other (and at least one other state -
> > Massachusetts - shares information with all other states despite not
> > singing on to the compact).
> >
> > What each other state does with information provided to it is up to each
> > individual state. The IDLC says nothing about this, and each state can
> > do whatever they want based on information they are told. For example,
> > Kansas will revoke your license if you have a DWI conviction in another
> > state, but will not revoke your license if another state issues an
> > administrative suspension on your license or driving privileges.

>
> This is the reason Driver Licensing as a Police Power is
> UnConstitutional. Driver Licenses are wrongly assumed to be
> Constitutional under Police Powers. But, Police Powers must be
> composed of "uniform regulations" (Hendrick v Maryland). Yet, you
> demonstrate by your own words above that Driver Licensing IS NOT
> composed of "uniform regulations". Spicifically, what may get one's
> driver licenses suspended in their own state does not necessary get an
> out of state driver licenses suspended, and they may continue to drive
> within the state that suspended it's own citizen's driver license.


This is not at all what the requirement of uniformity means, proffsl.

Something can be legal in one state but illegal in another. Heck, it
can be legal in some parts of a state but illegal in others. (Take
prostitution in Nevada, for example). Or even if some things, like
murder, are prohibited everywhere, each state can define the crime its
own way so that a particular incident is murder in one state but not in
another.

The uniformity requirement of the police power applies only to the
government exerting the power. If a state wants to implement a driver's
licensing law, or any other law, *that governmental entity* must
uniformly apply the law to everyone it covers. One state isn't bound by
what other states require regarding drivers licenses, or anything else
in the criminal or penal laws.

> For example: A Texas citizen has a Texas driver license. A Tennessee
> citizen has a Tennessee driver license. One day, both drivers are
> driving beside each other on a Texas highway, both drivers committing
> the same traffic violation, and are stopped at the same time by the
> same police officer. In Texas, that offense might get one's driver
> license suspended. In Tennessee, it may not. Both drivers might be
> equally fined, but Texas can not suspend a Tennessee driver license.


BBZZZZT!!! Texas can revoke your privilege to drive in Texas. So since
both drivers violated Texas law, neither driver can drive in Texas until
they pay the fine or the suspension period is over or whatever the law
requires.

Texas cannot prohibit your right to drive in Tennessee, regardless of
where you live.

> The Texas driver has his driver license suspended, and it is assumed he
> can no longer legally drive, on Texas highways, or any other state's
> highways.


Well, why are you assuming this? Tennessee is free to say that if you
do something illegal in another state that would be legal in Tennessee,
they won't hold it against you. (Some states do in fact do this.
That's why the DL compact merely shares information among the states and
lets each state decide what to do about a situation. It does not
require that every state suspend someone's license or driving privileges
if another state does so.)

On the other hand, the Tennessee driver does not have their
> driver license suspended, and it is assumed they may continue to
> legally drive in their own state, in other states, and in Texas.


This is completely untrue. Even if their Tennessee driver's license
remains valid, Texas can prohibit the person from driving in Texas, just
like it can with its own drivers.

I see this all the time in my line of work. NJ drivers come to NYC all
the time, and if they have a previously-unpaid speeding ticket, their
privilege of driving in NY will have been revoked. They'll be arrested
for unauthorized operation of a vehicle, even if their NJ license is
perfectly valid and in full effect.

Flat
> out, this DOES NOT exhibit "uniform regulations".
>
> "No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the
> privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall
> any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due
> process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the
> equal protection of the laws." -- 14th Amendment of the US Constitution
>
> "In the absence of national legislation covering the subject, a state
> may rightfully prescribe uniform regulations necessary for public
> safety and order in respect to the operation upon its highways of all
> motor vehicles,-those moving in interstate commerce as well as others."
> - Hendrick v Maryland, 1915, http://laws.findlaw.com/us/235/610.html


Hendrick, which is about commercial taxicab insurance, and not driver
licensing, specifically held that it is OK to regulate vehicles on the
road.

And obviously the "uniformity of regulations" clause doesn't mean what
you think it means. Can't the state set the speed limit on one road to
50 MPH and set it on another road to 35 MPH? That's not uniform, but
its' completely legal.
  #3  
Old September 11th 06, 04:35 AM posted to alt.law-enforcement,alt.true-crime,ga.general,misc.legal,rec.autos.driving
proffsl
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 132
Default Kaldis, OCD and You! <= what every sane person should know (was: Suspended license from another state)

Larry wrote:
> proffsl wrote:
> > Larry wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > That's not at all what the Interstate Drivers License Compact
> > > says.
> > >
> > > Among the 45 states that signed on to the compact, they simply
> > > *share* information with each other (and at least one other state -
> > > Massachusetts - shares information with all other states despite
> > > not singing on to the compact).
> > >
> > > What each other state does with information provided to it is up to
> > > each individual state. The IDLC says nothing about this, and each
> > > state can do whatever they want based on information they are told.
> > > For example, Kansas will revoke your license if you have a DWI
> > > conviction in another state, but will not revoke your license if
> > > another state issues an administrative suspension on your license
> > > or driving privileges.

> >
> > This is the reason Driver Licensing as a Police Power is
> > UnConstitutional. Driver Licenses are wrongly assumed to be
> > Constitutional under Police Powers. But, Police Powers must be
> > composed of "uniform regulations" (Hendrick v Maryland). Yet, you
> > demonstrate by your own words above that Driver Licensing IS NOT
> > composed of "uniform regulations". Spicifically, what may get one's
> > driver licenses suspended in their own state does not necessary get
> > an out of state driver licenses suspended, and they may continue to
> > drive within the state that suspended it's own citizen's driver license.

>
> This is not at all what the requirement of uniformity means, proffsl.
>
> Something can be legal in one state but illegal in another. Heck, it
> can be legal in some parts of a state but illegal in others. (Take
> prostitution in Nevada, for example). Or even if some things, like
> murder, are prohibited everywhere, each state can define the crime its
> own way so that a particular incident is murder in one state but not in
> another.
>
> The uniformity requirement of the police power applies only to the
> government exerting the power. If a state wants to implement a driver's
> licensing law, or any other law, *that governmental entity* must
> uniformly apply the law to everyone it covers. One state isn't bound by
> what other states require regarding drivers licenses, or anything else
> in the criminal or penal laws.
>
> > For example: A Texas citizen has a Texas driver license. A Tennessee
> > citizen has a Tennessee driver license. One day, both drivers are
> > driving beside each other on a Texas highway, both drivers committing
> > the same traffic violation, and are stopped at the same time by the
> > same police officer. In Texas, that offense might get one's driver
> > license suspended. In Tennessee, it may not. Both drivers might be
> > equally fined, but Texas can not suspend a Tennessee driver license.

>
> BBZZZZT!!! Texas can revoke your privilege to drive in Texas. So since
> both drivers violated Texas law, neither driver can drive in Texas until
> they pay the fine or the suspension period is over or whatever the law
> requires.
>
> Texas cannot prohibit your right to drive in Tennessee, regardless of
> where you live.


So, Texas can presumeably deny the Texas citizen the Right to drive in
Flordia by revoking his Texas driver license, but Texas can not deny
the Tennessee citizen the Right to drive in Flordia. Again, not
uniform.

  #4  
Old September 11th 06, 04:51 AM posted to alt.law-enforcement,alt.true-crime,ga.general,misc.legal,rec.autos.driving
Larry[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 613
Default Kaldis, OCD and You! <= what every sane person should know (was: Suspended license from another state)

In article .com>,
"proffsl" > wrote:
>
> So, Texas can presumeably deny the Texas citizen the Right to drive in
> Flordia by revoking his Texas driver license, but Texas can not deny
> the Tennessee citizen the Right to drive in Flordia. Again, not
> uniform.


Do you make this up as you go along? Texas cannot in any way, shape, or
form affect your driving privileges in Florida, unless Florida chooses
to abide by a Texas determination. This is true whether your license is
from Texas, Florida, Tennessee, or wherever.

Have a Texas driver's license that Texas suspended? Go to Florida and
get a driver's license there. If you qualify for one, you'll be issued
one, and you'll be allowed to drive in Florida. Of course, your Texas
suspension might prohibit you from getting one, but that's because
*Florida* has a rule about it.

Alternatively, Florida is also allowed to say "If you have a valid
license in another state, you can drive here. If your license in
another state is suspended, you can't drive here." If they want to
abide by Texas's determination that your driving privileges should be
suspended, they can do so if they wish. But it's up to Florida - Texas
isn't forcing anything on them.

You're not even close to getting it, are you?
  #5  
Old September 11th 06, 04:57 AM posted to alt.law-enforcement,alt.true-crime,ga.general,misc.legal,rec.autos.driving
proffsl
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 132
Default Kaldis, OCD and You! <= what every sane person should know (was: Suspended license from another state)

Larry wrote:
> proffsl wrote:
> >
> > So, Texas can presumeably deny the Texas citizen the Right to
> > drive in Flordia by revoking his Texas driver license, but Texas
> > can not deny the Tennessee citizen the Right to drive in Flordia.
> > Again, not uniform.

>
> Texas cannot in any way, shape, or form affect your driving
> privileges in Florida, unless Florida chooses to abide by a
> Texas determination.


So, with no further burdens, the Tennessee driver may drive in Flordia,
but the Texas driver may not. Thanks for agreeing with me, and
confirming once and for all that Driver Licensing is an
Unconstitutional Police Power.

  #6  
Old September 11th 06, 05:03 AM posted to alt.law-enforcement,alt.true-crime,ga.general,misc.legal,rec.autos.driving
Larry[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 613
Default Kaldis, OCD and You! <= what every sane person should know (was: Suspended license from another state)

In article .com>,
"proffsl" > wrote:

> Larry wrote:
> > proffsl wrote:
> > >
> > > So, Texas can presumeably deny the Texas citizen the Right to
> > > drive in Flordia by revoking his Texas driver license, but Texas
> > > can not deny the Tennessee citizen the Right to drive in Flordia.
> > > Again, not uniform.

> >
> > Texas cannot in any way, shape, or form affect your driving
> > privileges in Florida, unless Florida chooses to abide by a
> > Texas determination.

>
> So, with no further burdens, the Tennessee driver may drive in Flordia,
> but the Texas driver may not.


Wrong!

Only Florida can decide who can and cannot drive in Florida. Why can't
you get this through your thick, ignorant head?

If Texas suspends the license of one of its own residents, Florida can
decide how that affects the person's privilege to drive in Florida.

If Texas suspends the driving privileges (in Texas, of course) of
someone with a Tennessee driver's license, Florida can decide how that
affects the person's privilege to drive in Florida.


> Thanks for agreeing with me, and
> confirming once and for all that Driver Licensing is an
> Unconstitutional Police Power.


First, I'm not agreeing with you.

Second, you don't understand what I am saying.

Third, you don't understand how the laws work.

Fourth, and here's the kicker, *even if* the world operated the way you
think it does, it wouldn't violate the uniformity requirements for
police powers!
  #7  
Old September 11th 06, 05:11 AM posted to alt.law-enforcement,alt.true-crime,ga.general,misc.legal,rec.autos.driving
Larry[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 613
Default Kaldis, OCD and You! <= what every sane person should know (was: Suspended license from another state)

In article >,
Larry > wrote:

> In article .com>,
> "proffsl" > wrote:
>
> > Thanks for agreeing with me, and
> > confirming once and for all that Driver Licensing is an
> > Unconstitutional Police Power.

>


Proffy-woffy, you also still seem to fail to grasp the concept that the
only thing the uniformity requirement requires is that the sovereign
taking the action must apply *their* rules equally. Collateral effects
don't matter.

What do I mean? Well, if your caught DUI in Texas, Texas may suspend
your privilege to drive in Texas. This happens whether you have a Texas
driver's license, a Tennessee license, or no license at all (yes, it
happens. It means you can't go apply for a license).

What Florida or Idaho or anyone else does as a result of that
determination does not in any way affect the constitutionality of
Texas's determination.

Here's another example. If a foreign citizen violates a state criminal
law, they face deportation by the federal government as a consequence of
being convicted of the crime. If a US citizen is convicted of the very
same crime, they're not under any circumstances going to be kicked out
of the country. Does the fact that the federal government treats these
people differently mean the state law is not uniform? Hardly.
  #8  
Old September 11th 06, 05:11 AM posted to alt.law-enforcement,alt.true-crime,ga.general,misc.legal,rec.autos.driving
proffsl
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 132
Default Kaldis, OCD and You! <= what every sane person should know (was: Suspended license from another state)

Larry wrote:
> proffsl wrote:
> > Larry wrote:
> > > proffsl wrote:
> > > >
> > > > So, Texas can presumeably deny the Texas citizen the
> > > > Right to drive in Flordia by revoking his Texas driver license,
> > > > but Texas can not deny the Tennessee citizen the Right to
> > > > drive in Flordia.Again, not uniform.
> > >
> > > Texas cannot in any way, shape, or form affect your driving
> > > privileges in Florida, unless Florida chooses to abide by a
> > > Texas determination.

> >
> > So, with no further burdens, the Tennessee driver may drive in
> > Flordia, but the Texas driver may not. Thanks for agreeing with
> > me, and confirming once and for all that Driver Licensing is an
> > Unconstitutional Police Power.

>
> If Texas suspends the license of one of its own residents, Florida can
> decide how that affects the person's privilege to drive in Florida.
>
> If Texas suspends the driving privileges (in Texas, of course) of
> someone with a Tennessee driver's license, Florida can decide how that
> affects the person's privilege to drive in Florida.


As Texas can not suspend the Tennessee driver's license, you have once
again proven me correct. Again, thanks for the confirmation.

  #9  
Old September 11th 06, 05:16 AM posted to alt.law-enforcement,alt.true-crime,ga.general,misc.legal,rec.autos.driving
Larry[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 613
Default Kaldis, OCD and You! <= what every sane person should know (was: Suspended license from another state)

In article .com>,
"proffsl" > wrote:

> Larry wrote:
> > proffsl wrote:
> > > Larry wrote:
> > > > proffsl wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > So, Texas can presumeably deny the Texas citizen the
> > > > > Right to drive in Flordia by revoking his Texas driver license,
> > > > > but Texas can not deny the Tennessee citizen the Right to
> > > > > drive in Flordia.Again, not uniform.
> > > >
> > > > Texas cannot in any way, shape, or form affect your driving
> > > > privileges in Florida, unless Florida chooses to abide by a
> > > > Texas determination.
> > >
> > > So, with no further burdens, the Tennessee driver may drive in
> > > Flordia, but the Texas driver may not. Thanks for agreeing with
> > > me, and confirming once and for all that Driver Licensing is an
> > > Unconstitutional Police Power.

> >
> > If Texas suspends the license of one of its own residents, Florida can
> > decide how that affects the person's privilege to drive in Florida.
> >
> > If Texas suspends the driving privileges (in Texas, of course) of
> > someone with a Tennessee driver's license, Florida can decide how that
> > affects the person's privilege to drive in Florida.

>
> As Texas can not suspend the Tennessee driver's license, you have once
> again proven me correct. Again, thanks for the confirmation.


You're missing the entire point. Texas's determination has *NO EFFECT
WHATSOEVER* on your ability to drive in Tennessee or Florida *REGARDLESS
OF WHAT STATE ISSUED YOU YOUR LICENSE* unless, and only if, Tennessee or
Florida CHOOSE to give Texas's suspension some effect in their own
states.

Each state decides for themselves who drives in their state, regardless
of what state issued you your license and regardless of what the other
49 states think about your privilege to drive within their borders. I
really can't make it any simply, proffy. I've dumbed it down enough
that even your one-cell mind should be able to grasp it.
  #10  
Old September 11th 06, 05:24 AM posted to alt.law-enforcement,alt.true-crime,ga.general,misc.legal,rec.autos.driving
proffsl
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 132
Default Kaldis, OCD and You! <= what every sane person should know (was: Suspended license from another state)

Larry wrote:
> proffsl wrote:
> > Larry wrote:
> > > proffsl wrote:
> > > > Larry wrote:
> > > > > proffsl wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So, Texas can presumeably deny the Texas citizen the
> > > > > > Right to drive in Flordia by revoking his Texas driver license,
> > > > > > but Texas can not deny the Tennessee citizen the Right to
> > > > > > drive in Flordia.Again, not uniform.
> > > > >
> > > > > Texas cannot in any way, shape, or form affect your driving
> > > > > privileges in Florida, unless Florida chooses to abide by a
> > > > > Texas determination.
> > > >
> > > > So, with no further burdens, the Tennessee driver may drive in
> > > > Flordia, but the Texas driver may not. Thanks for agreeing with
> > > > me, and confirming once and for all that Driver Licensing is an
> > > > Unconstitutional Police Power.
> > >
> > > If Texas suspends the license of one of its own residents, Florida can
> > > decide how that affects the person's privilege to drive in Florida.
> > >
> > > If Texas suspends the driving privileges (in Texas, of course) of
> > > someone with a Tennessee driver's license, Florida can decide how that
> > > affects the person's privilege to drive in Florida.

> >
> > As Texas can not suspend the Tennessee driver's license, you have
> > once again proven me correct. Again, thanks for the confirmation.

>
> Texas's determination has *NO EFFECT WHATSOEVER* on your
> ability to drive in Tennessee or Florida *REGARDLESS OF WHAT
> STATE ISSUED YOU YOUR LICENSE* unless, and only if,
> Tennessee or Florida CHOOSE to give Texas's suspension some
> effect in their own states.


So, any state that honors valid driver licenses from another state,
which is pretty much all of them, is practicing ununiform application
of Police Powers. Both the Texas citizen and the Tennessee citizen are
guilty of the same offense, yet the Tennessee driver is free to drive
in virtually all other states, while the Texas driver, no longer having
a valid driver license, is not. In other words, driver licensing as a
Police Power is Unconstitutional.

 




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