1993 SL bucks... suggestions?

Hey everyone..

I have a 1993 Saturn SL manual 5 speed which has started bucking while
driving. It has about 160k miles on it and has been EXTREMELY
dependable until now. While driving it, it will start to buck. There
doesn't seem to be any pattern except for once in a while it will buck.

At first I thought it was bad gas.. I've replaced that, and it doesn't
seem to help. I remember my girlfriend's Jeep Wrangler bucking and it
turned out to be an oxygen sensor. I'm not sure if this is the same,
but it sure felt like it.

Just wondering what other people with similar problems have found helpful?

The plugs are relatively new and so is the wire set. I've tried fuel
injector cleaner and that didn't seem to help any.

Thanks in advance!

Marty (remove NOSPAM in my email address to reply privately)

Could also be the Throttle position sensor, or could be the whole
engine control module in limp mode. Is the weather getting warmer?.

Have the car diagnosed by a competent mechanic


On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 15:38:57 GMT, "K. Daver"
> wrote:

>Hey everyone..
>
>I have a 1993 Saturn SL manual 5 speed which has started bucking while
>driving. It has about 160k miles on it and has been EXTREMELY
>dependable until now. While driving it, it will start to buck. There
>doesn't seem to be any pattern except for once in a while it will buck.
>
>At first I thought it was bad gas.. I've replaced that, and it doesn't
>seem to help. I remember my girlfriend's Jeep Wrangler bucking and it
>turned out to be an oxygen sensor. I'm not sure if this is the same,
>but it sure felt like it.
>
>Just wondering what other people with similar problems have found helpful?
>
>The plugs are relatively new and so is the wire set. I've tried fuel
>injector cleaner and that didn't seem to help any.
>
>Thanks in advance!
>
>Marty (remove NOSPAM in my email address to reply privately)

Hi there!

Gotcha. Yes -- the weather has gotten warmer. I'm in the East Coast,
and we're just starting to get back to 60'ish degrees.

Thanks for the tips!

Marty

M. Cantera wrote:
> Could also be the Throttle position sensor, or could be the whole
> engine control module in limp mode. Is the weather getting warmer?.
>
> Have the car diagnosed by a competent mechanic
>
>
> On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 15:38:57 GMT, "K. Daver"
> > wrote:
>
>
>>Hey everyone..
>>
>>I have a 1993 Saturn SL manual 5 speed which has started bucking while
>>driving. It has about 160k miles on it and has been EXTREMELY
>>dependable until now. While driving it, it will start to buck. There
>>doesn't seem to be any pattern except for once in a while it will buck.
>>
>>At first I thought it was bad gas.. I've replaced that, and it doesn't
>>seem to help. I remember my girlfriend's Jeep Wrangler bucking and it
>>turned out to be an oxygen sensor. I'm not sure if this is the same,
>>but it sure felt like it.
>>
>>Just wondering what other people with similar problems have found helpful?
>>
>>The plugs are relatively new and so is the wire set. I've tried fuel
>>injector cleaner and that didn't seem to help any.
>>
>>Thanks in advance!
>>
>>Marty (remove NOSPAM in my email address to reply privately)
>
>

"K. Daver" > typed until their fingers bled,
and came up with:

> Hey everyone..
>
> I have a 1993 Saturn SL manual 5 speed which has started bucking while
> driving.

also check the torque axis mount (upper engine mount)

--
Visit the Saturn Performance Club - http://www.saturnperformanceclub.com

Probably the ECM.

I had the same thing happen on a 90 GMC truck. It would go for about
five or six miles and thenit would start missing. Took it to the
mechanic on a colder day it it ran fine (had a cold front move
through) Three days later missing again. No check engine light or
anything else.

A different mechic replaced the computer and that cured the problem



On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 19:26:16 GMT, "K. Daver"
> wrote:

>Hi there!
>
>Gotcha. Yes -- the weather has gotten warmer. I'm in the East Coast,
>and we're just starting to get back to 60'ish degrees.
>
>Thanks for the tips!
>
>Marty
>
>M. Cantera wrote:
>> Could also be the Throttle position sensor, or could be the whole
>> engine control module in limp mode. Is the weather getting warmer?.
>>
>> Have the car diagnosed by a competent mechanic
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 15:38:57 GMT, "K. Daver"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Hey everyone..
>>>
>>>I have a 1993 Saturn SL manual 5 speed which has started bucking while
>>>driving. It has about 160k miles on it and has been EXTREMELY
>>>dependable until now. While driving it, it will start to buck. There
>>>doesn't seem to be any pattern except for once in a while it will buck.
>>>
>>>At first I thought it was bad gas.. I've replaced that, and it doesn't
>>>seem to help. I remember my girlfriend's Jeep Wrangler bucking and it
>>>turned out to be an oxygen sensor. I'm not sure if this is the same,
>>>but it sure felt like it.
>>>
>>>Just wondering what other people with similar problems have found helpful?
>>>
>>>The plugs are relatively new and so is the wire set. I've tried fuel
>>>injector cleaner and that didn't seem to help any.
>>>
>>>Thanks in advance!
>>>
>>>Marty (remove NOSPAM in my email address to reply privately)
>>
>>

Thanks for the tips. I hate to just throw parts at it (like I had to
with my girlfriends Jeep..) but will definitely start looking at the ECM
and mounts first.

Thanks again!

M. Cantera wrote:
> Probably the ECM.
>
> I had the same thing happen on a 90 GMC truck. It would go for about
> five or six miles and thenit would start missing. Took it to the
> mechanic on a colder day it it ran fine (had a cold front move
> through) Three days later missing again. No check engine light or
> anything else.
>
> A different mechic replaced the computer and that cured the problem
>
>
>
> On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 19:26:16 GMT, "K. Daver"
> > wrote:
>
>
>>Hi there!
>>
>>Gotcha. Yes -- the weather has gotten warmer. I'm in the East Coast,
>>and we're just starting to get back to 60'ish degrees.
>>
>>Thanks for the tips!
>>
>>Marty
>>
>>M. Cantera wrote:
>>
>>>Could also be the Throttle position sensor, or could be the whole
>>>engine control module in limp mode. Is the weather getting warmer?.
>>>
>>>Have the car diagnosed by a competent mechanic
>>>
>>>
>>>On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 15:38:57 GMT, "K. Daver"
> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Hey everyone..
>>>>
>>>>I have a 1993 Saturn SL manual 5 speed which has started bucking while
>>>>driving. It has about 160k miles on it and has been EXTREMELY
>>>>dependable until now. While driving it, it will start to buck. There
>>>>doesn't seem to be any pattern except for once in a while it will buck.
>>>>
>>>>At first I thought it was bad gas.. I've replaced that, and it doesn't
>>>>seem to help. I remember my girlfriend's Jeep Wrangler bucking and it
>>>>turned out to be an oxygen sensor. I'm not sure if this is the same,
>>>>but it sure felt like it.
>>>>
>>>>Just wondering what other people with similar problems have found helpful?
>>>>
>>>>The plugs are relatively new and so is the wire set. I've tried fuel
>>>>injector cleaner and that didn't seem to help any.
>>>>
>>>>Thanks in advance!
>>>>
>>>>Marty (remove NOSPAM in my email address to reply privately)
>>>
>>>
>

I'd guess the ECM is giving you problems. If you wanna have it verified
first, be sure to take it to Saturn or at least to someone with Saturn
experience. GM dealership kept trying to screw around with me telling me my
plugs and wires needed replaced (had just replaced them before going.)

Told them this, they checked again, and then told me there was no miss!?
The 'Mr. Goodwrench' character there was fascinated when I pulled off a plug
wire and showed him the miss in action against the valve cover. He had
literally never seen that done before! Scary. Sometimes I wonder if
warranty work is worth the risk.

Anyway, I told them that it had to be either the ECM or coil pack, and to
check them. They came back with, "we think it's both." In other words, "We
don't have a f%^# idea of how to check, so we're replacing them both!"

Good news is, if the ECM is the problem, most places sell the ECM and coil
pack together as a set. So, it's hard to go wrong with it. Look for a miss
on a cylinder, check the wire for good continuity, and if the wire is good
and it still misses....probably the ECM going down. Warmer weather kicks
this problem into prominency.

I would be AMAZED if the computer were the problem. I've never heard of one
going bad.

You should read the codes from the computer to see what's up. Until you do
that, you can do a lot of guessing and start replacing parts, but it doesn't
guarantee that it will fix anything. You can see instructions on how to
read the codes yourself he

http://www.differentracing.com/tech_articles/index.html
Refer to Diagnostic Trouble Code Information, and Diagnostic Trouble Code
Chart for 1st Gen Saturns. Since you have a 1st gen Saturn, you can do it
with a paper clip. Or, I've heard that you can stop by any Auto Zone and
have them read the codes for no charge.

Any Haynes or Chilton manual will give additional info on what each code
means.

Good luck,
Lane [ lane (at) evilplastic.com ]
---
Visit my Saturn Car Audio and Performance Page at http://www.evilplastic.com



"hoosier_drifter" > wrote in message
...
> I'd guess the ECM is giving you problems. If you wanna have it verified
> first, be sure to take it to Saturn or at least to someone with Saturn
> experience. GM dealership kept trying to screw around with me telling me
my
> plugs and wires needed replaced (had just replaced them before going.)
>
> Told them this, they checked again, and then told me there was no miss!?
> The 'Mr. Goodwrench' character there was fascinated when I pulled off a
plug
> wire and showed him the miss in action against the valve cover. He had
> literally never seen that done before! Scary. Sometimes I wonder if
> warranty work is worth the risk.
>
> Anyway, I told them that it had to be either the ECM or coil pack, and to
> check them. They came back with, "we think it's both." In other words,
"We
> don't have a f%^# idea of how to check, so we're replacing them both!"
>
> Good news is, if the ECM is the problem, most places sell the ECM and coil
> pack together as a set. So, it's hard to go wrong with it. Look for a
miss
> on a cylinder, check the wire for good continuity, and if the wire is good
> and it still misses....probably the ECM going down. Warmer weather kicks
> this problem into prominency.
>
>

In article >,
"Lane" > wrote:

> I would be AMAZED if the computer were the problem. I've never heard of one
> going bad.

Me too.

The electronic ignition pack could go bad, and I've had that, but not on
my Saturn.

Don't forget - the crank sensor could be acting up.

Garbage in, garbage out.

BTW, I know as a fact that at least one aerospace firm has approached
the Big Three to share info w.r.t. computer hardening. Automotive
environments are apparently pretty brutal, and said firm was looking to
compare notes with said Big Three company to see if they could learn
anything new...

I'm currently specing out a data aquisition system for a customer. One
requirement is that it's hardened against shock waves from explosions.
No kidding, the computer will be installed near 200kv class circuit
breakers. When those trip, it's not pleasent at all. Doubly fun
because it's a RR traction application, and that means all sorts of
bizzare stuff you wouldn't see in a transmission application....

Again, MANY MANY thanks. Once I'm able to bring it to my mechanic, I'll
let ya know.

Appreciate the help!

Marty

Philip Nasadowski wrote:
> In article >,
> "Lane" > wrote:
>
>
>>I would be AMAZED if the computer were the problem. I've never heard of one
>>going bad.
>
>
> Me too.
>
> The electronic ignition pack could go bad, and I've had that, but not on
> my Saturn.
>
> Don't forget - the crank sensor could be acting up.
>
> Garbage in, garbage out.
>
> BTW, I know as a fact that at least one aerospace firm has approached
> the Big Three to share info w.r.t. computer hardening. Automotive
> environments are apparently pretty brutal, and said firm was looking to
> compare notes with said Big Three company to see if they could learn
> anything new...
>
> I'm currently specing out a data aquisition system for a customer. One
> requirement is that it's hardened against shock waves from explosions.
> No kidding, the computer will be installed near 200kv class circuit
> breakers. When those trip, it's not pleasent at all. Doubly fun
> because it's a RR traction application, and that means all sorts of
> bizzare stuff you wouldn't see in a transmission application....