Hybrid cars

If hybrids are so great, then why aren't they used in Japan or European
countries where gas is more expensive? Answer: poor return on investment.

1. They cost more.
2. They depreciate quicker (and will as hybrid technologh improves).
3. A high mileage car (like a Honda Civic or a Toyota Corolla or Echo)
will get comparable gas mileage with conventional engine technology.

So... Calculate the increased cost of buying a hybrid and compare it
with the gas savings and see how long it takes to break even.

Compare that with the cost savings you'd get by simply buying a good
mileage internal combustion engine car.

Then decide for yourself.

I get a kick outta the SUV hybrids. Add a bunch of girth and then try
to compensate by putting a hybrid engine in it. Sort of like buying
a Hybrid Humvee.

b.

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> If hybrids are so great, then why aren't they used in Japan or European
> countries where gas is more expensive? Answer: poor return on
> investment.

Actually, hybrids are used in Japan and Europe.

>
> 1. They cost more.

It is true that they cost more than a comparable non-hybrid vehicle.

> 2. They depreciate quicker (and will as hybrid technologh improves).

I don't think this is necessarily true.

> 3. A high mileage car (like a Honda Civic or a Toyota Corolla or Echo)
> will get comparable gas mileage with conventional engine technology.

I do not think that the Corolla's fuel ecoconmy is as good as the Prius,
although the Civic and Echo are in the same ballpark.

>
> So... Calculate the increased cost of buying a hybrid and compare it
> with the gas savings and see how long it takes to break even.
>

At today's gas prices in the U.S., I believe that break-even is somewhere
around 7 to 10 years.
> Compare that with the cost savings you'd get by simply buying a good
> mileage internal combustion engine car.

I do not believe that many people are purchasing hybrids to save money.
More likely, they want the gee-wiz factor.


> Then decide for yourself.
>
> I get a kick outta the SUV hybrids. Add a bunch of girth and then try
> to compensate by putting a hybrid engine in it. Sort of like buying
> a Hybrid Humvee.
>
> b.
--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

Ray O wrote:
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > Compare that with the cost savings you'd get by simply buying a good
> > mileage internal combustion engine car.
>
> I do not believe that many people are purchasing hybrids to save money.
> More likely, they want the gee-wiz factor.

The term is "early adopters". I bought my first DVD player in 1997
before they really took off. Cost me $1099, although it was for the
Pioneer combinational LaserDisc/DVD player. I bought another one
later that Fall (from Sony) for $600. These days a machine for
under $100 will perform at least as well and have more capabilities
that were added as the technology progressed.

I used to work in downtown Berkeley, California. I would park at
a city owned garage which was used for part of the city's motor
pool. City Hall and many city offices were within a block. I
think the city's policy used to be to buy American makes. There
were a lot of white Ford Tempos, Chevy Cavaliers, and Dodge
Ram pickups. Recently though, they've had several Honda Civic
Hybrids.

"y_p_w" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Ray O wrote:
>> > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>> > Compare that with the cost savings you'd get by simply buying a good
>> > mileage internal combustion engine car.
>>
>> I do not believe that many people are purchasing hybrids to save money.
>> More likely, they want the gee-wiz factor.
>
> The term is "early adopters". I bought my first DVD player in 1997
> before they really took off. Cost me $1099, although it was for the
> Pioneer combinational LaserDisc/DVD player. I bought another one
> later that Fall (from Sony) for $600. These days a machine for
> under $100 will perform at least as well and have more capabilities
> that were added as the technology progressed.
>

I enjoyed being an early adopter of automotive tgechnology a lot more when
it was part of the job and didn 't cost me anything. I am a little less
enthusiastic now that I have to pay for cars :-(

> I used to work in downtown Berkeley, California. I would park at
> a city owned garage which was used for part of the city's motor
> pool. City Hall and many city offices were within a block. I
> think the city's policy used to be to buy American makes. There
> were a lot of white Ford Tempos, Chevy Cavaliers, and Dodge
> Ram pickups. Recently though, they've had several Honda Civic
> Hybrids.
>

I lived in the Bay area from '78 to '83 and noticed that there were a lot
more imports on the road in CA than in the Midwest. I suppose that the
trend towards imports may even be stronger than it was back then.
--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

Ray O wrote:
> "y_p_w" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> > I used to work in downtown Berkeley, California. I would park at
> > a city owned garage which was used for part of the city's motor
> > pool. City Hall and many city offices were within a block. I
> > think the city's policy used to be to buy American makes. There
> > were a lot of white Ford Tempos, Chevy Cavaliers, and Dodge
> > Ram pickups. Recently though, they've had several Honda Civic
> > Hybrids.
> >
>
> I lived in the Bay area from '78 to '83 and noticed that there were a lot
> more imports on the road in CA than in the Midwest. I suppose that the
> trend towards imports may even be stronger than it was back then.

The city population as a whole leans towards import makes, like
Honda, Toyota, Volvo, and BMW. The city itself has varying
incomes, and the tendency is towards American makes in some
of the lower income parts of town.

There's only a single new car dealer in Berkeley that still sells
an American make (a VW/Cadillac dealer). There used to be
dealers for Olds, Buick, and Chevy until business started waning
in the 90's. Reggie Jackson Chevrolet was the last to close. It's
now a bookstore.

"y_p_w" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>>> >
>>
>> I lived in the Bay area from '78 to '83 and noticed that there were a lot
>> more imports on the road in CA than in the Midwest. I suppose that the
>> trend towards imports may even be stronger than it was back then.
>
> The city population as a whole leans towards import makes, like
> Honda, Toyota, Volvo, and BMW. The city itself has varying
> incomes, and the tendency is towards American makes in some
> of the lower income parts of town.
>
> There's only a single new car dealer in Berkeley that still sells
> an American make (a VW/Cadillac dealer). There used to be
> dealers for Olds, Buick, and Chevy until business started waning
> in the 90's. Reggie Jackson Chevrolet was the last to close. It's
> now a bookstore.
>

Is Tim Soluthwick's Toyota of Berkeley still there?
--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

wrote:
>
> If hybrids are so great, then why aren't they used in Japan or European
> countries where gas is more expensive? Answer: poor return on investment.

You should at least do a modicum of research before making
broad sweeping statements like this. Just Toyota has sold
nearly have a million hybrids since 1997, that's more than
eight years, and projects selling almost half a million more
hybrids this year alone. Most of that first half million
cars was sold in Japan, BTW.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...uY&refer=japan

JazzMan

--
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wrote:
> If hybrids are so great, then why aren't they used in Japan or European
> countries where gas is more expensive? Answer: poor return on investment.
>
> 1. They cost more.
> 2. They depreciate quicker (and will as hybrid technologh improves).
> 3. A high mileage car (like a Honda Civic or a Toyota Corolla or Echo)
> will get comparable gas mileage with conventional engine technology.
>
> So... Calculate the increased cost of buying a hybrid and compare it
> with the gas savings and see how long it takes to break even.
>
> Compare that with the cost savings you'd get by simply buying a good
> mileage internal combustion engine car.
>
> Then decide for yourself.
>
> I get a kick outta the SUV hybrids. Add a bunch of girth and then try
> to compensate by putting a hybrid engine in it. Sort of like buying
> a Hybrid Humvee.
>
> b.

One reason is that performance is not such a big issue, and typical cars
there have smaller engines, and already get better milage than typical
cars sold in US. Hybrids are way to keep performance AND high milage.
yeah, you pay a premium for a car with good milage and performance
compared to just small engined car, but US buyers are willing and able
to pay such a premium.

JazzMan > wrote:
: wrote:
:>
:> If hybrids are so great, then why aren't they used in Japan or European
:> countries where gas is more expensive? Answer: poor return on investment.

: You should at least do a modicum of research before making
: broad sweeping statements like this. Just Toyota has sold
: nearly have a million hybrids since 1997, that's more than
: eight years, and projects selling almost half a million more
: hybrids this year alone. Most of that first half million
: cars was sold in Japan, BTW.

: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...uY&refer=japan

: JazzMan

How about: http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl..._1/ai_76320563

You've got to hand it to Toyota Motor Corp. and Honda Motor Co. Ltd. They're the only ones in the world that have hybrid-electric cars on sale to the public. This, at a time when the public is screaming for fuel efficiency. Not only are the Toyota Prius and Honda Insight the most fuel efficient gasoline-powered cars available, they are beautifully engineered. But they have one small problem. They don't sell very well.

What's even more amazing is that they don't sell very well anywhere in the world. Sales of the Prius in Japan have dropped every year since 1998, the first full year they were available. They're off 30% in three years, and will be down this year, too.

The same goes for the Honda Insight. It doesn't sell very well, either. Sales in Japan are down nearly 90% this year. Of course, one reason is that Honda has diverted sales of those cars to the United States. But it did so because it wasn't selling many in Japan. Last year only 1,400 Insights were sold there.

What's going on here? Why can't you sell the most fuel efficient cars in a country where gasoline costs $5 a gallon? The answer is easy: These cars are not cost-effective.

They're even less cost effective in the United States, where the price of gasoline is much lower. That's why Honda will struggle to sell 5,000 Insights in the American market this year, and why Toyota will only sell about 14,000 Priuses. Toyota says demand is higher than expected, but that's still not too many.

The numbers tell the story. Let's compare the hybrid-electric Toyota Prius against the gasoline-powered Toyota Echo, because they're virtually the same car. The Echo, with destination charge and popular options, costs about $12,700. The Prius costs $20,450, a difference of $7,750, which is a lot. The Echo, with an automatic transmission, gets a combined 34 mpg (6.9L/100 km). That will cost most drivers about $730 in annual fuel costs, based on $1.70 a gallon. The Prius gets a combined 48 mpg, which translates into an annual fuel cost of $530, which represents a $200 a year savings. But remember the Prius costs $7,750 more than the Echo, so it would take you 38 years to make up the price difference in fuel economy savings.

Even at $5 a gallon it would take 12 years to make up the price difference, so it's no surprise that Japanese consumers have largely ignored these cars.

(the article continues)

wrote:
>
> JazzMan > wrote:
> : wrote:
> :>
> :> If hybrids are so great, then why aren't they used in Japan or European
> :> countries where gas is more expensive? Answer: poor return on investment.
>
> : You should at least do a modicum of research before making
> : broad sweeping statements like this. Just Toyota has sold
> : nearly have a million hybrids since 1997, that's more than
> : eight years, and projects selling almost half a million more
> : hybrids this year alone. Most of that first half million
> : cars was sold in Japan, BTW.
>
> : http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...uY&refer=japan
>
> : JazzMan
>
> How about: http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl..._1/ai_76320563
>

The numbers in your article are contradicted by the numbers in the
bloomberg.com article, and I trust their numbers more than I do
yours. Toyota forecasts telling 400,000+ hybrids this year,
a far cry from the numbers in your article indicating only a
few thousand.

JazzMan
--
************************************************** ********
Please reply to jsavage"at"airmail.net.
Curse those darned bulk e-mailers!
************************************************** ********
"Rats and roaches live by competition under the laws of
supply and demand. It is the privilege of human beings to
live under the laws of justice and mercy." - Wendell Berry
************************************************** ********