7 Series

Holy Cow.... I think somebody is a little bit sensitive. Corey, are you sleeping with Mr. Bangle? I simply asked when is BMW going to do the next 7 series makeover, and you interpret it as "whining". I think the only "whining" is to be found in your defensive rant. And after your tirade is done, my original question is never even answered!!! When are they doing a makeover?

For the record, and since you brought the subject up, I do think the 7-Series has some issues. I did own a 2003 745i, but I lemon-lawed it after it was in the shop for over 45 days during my first 8 months of ownership. My problems all stemmed from the I-Drive. When one function went out, all the other functions fell like dominoes- just like a computer freezing up. I was unable to use the radio, stereo, i-drive related climate control, phone.... not what you expect from their flagship vehicle. And I was not alone in my grief, I know four other friends who have returned their 7s. I think that BMW made a big mistake in trying to seemlessly integrate so many components. Mechanics are not computer programmers, and I know that the mechanics that worked on my car would have loved to have the option of simply replacing a stereo or phone. Instead, when the i-drive failed, they would try (and fail) to successfully perform the automotive equivalent of a brain transplant.

With regards to the styling of the car, I thought it was interesting, but it did have some obscure lines. I bought it because it was different, but I never thought it was a natural beauty, like say a Meredes CL500 or a Ferrari Dino. I'm sure the 745i will be a classic one day.... age will do that to all vehicles (even a Yugo, Dodge Dart & Ford Pinto are all practically "classics"!!!), but it will never be a classic beauty. To me, being different isn't to be equated with being a great car, being a classic, or even being beautiful. If it was, the Pontiac Aztec would still be in production.

I look forward to the makeover of the 7-Series, when they can refine it, work out the kinks, and smooth out some of it's lines. Which brings me back to my original question: when are they going to do a makeover (however mild that makeover may be) and does anybody have an photos/renditions of what is to be expected?





"Corey Shuman" > wrote in message ups.com...
> Boy another whiner about about the Bangle. Do you realize that you are
> whining about exactly what has made BMW stand apart from other cars for
> upwards of 30 years now? When is the last time you mistook a new 5 or 7
> for a Diamante or an Accord? I remember in the early 80s about the M1,
> was this what to expect in the future? It was ugly, bulky and speed was
> the main concern. Now its a classic. Then there were the 6 series
> whiners. My favorite was I remeber someone calling the 635CSI a "german
> camaro", more people bitching about how BMW was steering away from
> their classic styling, blah, blah, the interior controls were too
> complicated, the rear climate control was completely idiotic.... etc,
> etc, etc..., Now this is also a classic. Last but not least was the
> whining about the e36, how it was a cheap 5 series knock off, it had no
> sportiness, and it was only a way to get a younger crowd into the
> dealership. Well, time will tell on this but people seem to like the
> M3...
> And the I-Drive?? geez... this is technology people, wake up an figure
> out how to use it!!! It is already being copied by Lexus, Infiniti and
> the new Lincoln Nerdigator is slated for a new central control system
> too. Hmm. sounds like BMW has done it again. Let me put it this way, if
> you are too lazy or stupid to learn about the controls in your car then
> you should buy something else, maybe a Civic. Learn how to use it and
> you will be impressed.
> I guess it can be summed up by a quote I once heard. it went something
> like this... The true measure of intelligence is the ability to adapt
> to change... if you cant deal with the new technology and body
> styles... well....
>

See latest copy of Auto Express (UK)
"Meg R." > wrote in message news:GqcDd.22019$CH5.21578@fed1read01...
Holy Cow.... I think somebody is a little bit sensitive. Corey, are you sleeping with Mr. Bangle? I simply asked when is BMW going to do the next 7 series makeover, and you interpret it as "whining". I think the only "whining" is to be found in your defensive rant. And after your tirade is done, my original question is never even answered!!! When are they doing a makeover?

For the record, and since you brought the subject up, I do think the 7-Series has some issues. I did own a 2003 745i, but I lemon-lawed it after it was in the shop for over 45 days during my first 8 months of ownership. My problems all stemmed from the I-Drive. When one function went out, all the other functions fell like dominoes- just like a computer freezing up. I was unable to use the radio, stereo, i-drive related climate control, phone.... not what you expect from their flagship vehicle. And I was not alone in my grief, I know four other friends who have returned their 7s. I think that BMW made a big mistake in trying to seemlessly integrate so many components. Mechanics are not computer programmers, and I know that the mechanics that worked on my car would have loved to have the option of simply replacing a stereo or phone. Instead, when the i-drive failed, they would try (and fail) to successfully perform the automotive equivalent of a brain transplant.

With regards to the styling of the car, I thought it was interesting, but it did have some obscure lines. I bought it because it was different, but I never thought it was a natural beauty, like say a Meredes CL500 or a Ferrari Dino. I'm sure the 745i will be a classic one day.... age will do that to all vehicles (even a Yugo, Dodge Dart & Ford Pinto are all practically "classics"!!!), but it will never be a classic beauty. To me, being different isn't to be equated with being a great car, being a classic, or even being beautiful. If it was, the Pontiac Aztec would still be in production.

I look forward to the makeover of the 7-Series, when they can refine it, work out the kinks, and smooth out some of it's lines. Which brings me back to my original question: when are they going to do a makeover (however mild that makeover may be) and does anybody have an photos/renditions of what is to be expected?





"Corey Shuman" > wrote in message ups.com...
> Boy another whiner about about the Bangle. Do you realize that you are
> whining about exactly what has made BMW stand apart from other cars for
> upwards of 30 years now? When is the last time you mistook a new 5 or 7
> for a Diamante or an Accord? I remember in the early 80s about the M1,
> was this what to expect in the future? It was ugly, bulky and speed was
> the main concern. Now its a classic. Then there were the 6 series
> whiners. My favorite was I remeber someone calling the 635CSI a "german
> camaro", more people bitching about how BMW was steering away from
> their classic styling, blah, blah, the interior controls were too
> complicated, the rear climate control was completely idiotic.... etc,
> etc, etc..., Now this is also a classic. Last but not least was the
> whining about the e36, how it was a cheap 5 series knock off, it had no
> sportiness, and it was only a way to get a younger crowd into the
> dealership. Well, time will tell on this but people seem to like the
> M3...
> And the I-Drive?? geez... this is technology people, wake up an figure
> out how to use it!!! It is already being copied by Lexus, Infiniti and
> the new Lincoln Nerdigator is slated for a new central control system
> too. Hmm. sounds like BMW has done it again. Let me put it this way, if
> you are too lazy or stupid to learn about the controls in your car then
> you should buy something else, maybe a Civic. Learn how to use it and
> you will be impressed.
> I guess it can be summed up by a quote I once heard. it went something
> like this... The true measure of intelligence is the ability to adapt
> to change... if you cant deal with the new technology and body
> styles... well....
>

Sells better in US than in Germany....According to the numbers you gave that
means about 20 500 in 2003. In Germany only about 7900 sold, though on a
population basis that's slightly more than the US...

My ref website does yet show the data for 2004.
http://www.kfz-auskunft.de/kfz/pkw_n...gen_2003b.html

DAS
--
For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
---

"bfd" > wrote in message
...
Apparently, most US buyers are waiting for the revision as BMW U.S. 7 series
sales is really in the dumpster having only sold 1,576 cars in Dec. 04 and
only 16,155 for Ytd 2004 (down a whopping 21.1%, Yikes!)

http://myfilelocker.comcast.net/fdme...ries_Sales.pdf


"Richard Wall" > wrote in message
...
See latest copy of Auto Express (UK)
"Meg R." > wrote in message
news:GqcDd.22019$CH5.21578@fed1read01...
Holy Cow.... I think somebody is a little bit sensitive. Corey, are you
sleeping with Mr. Bangle? I simply asked when is BMW going to do the next 7
series makeover, and you interpret it as "whining". I think the only
"whining" is to be found in your defensive rant. And after your tirade is
done, my original question is never even answered!!! When are they doing a
makeover?

For the record, and since you brought the subject up, I do think the
7-Series has some issues. I did own a 2003 745i, but I lemon-lawed it after
it was in the shop for over 45 days during my first 8 months of ownership.
My problems all stemmed from the I-Drive. When one function went out, all
the other functions fell like dominoes- just like a computer freezing up. I
was unable to use the radio, stereo, i-drive related climate control,
phone.... not what you expect from their flagship vehicle. And I was not
alone in my grief, I know four other friends who have returned their 7s. I
think that BMW made a big mistake in trying to seemlessly integrate so many
components. Mechanics are not computer programmers, and I know that the
mechanics that worked on my car would have loved to have the option of
simply replacing a stereo or phone. Instead, when the i-drive failed, they
would try (and fail) to successfully perform the automotive equivalent of a
brain transplant.

With regards to the styling of the car, I thought it was interesting, but it
did have some obscure lines. I bought it because it was different, but I
never thought it was a natural beauty, like say a Meredes CL500 or a Ferrari
Dino. I'm sure the 745i will be a classic one day.... age will do that to
all vehicles (even a Yugo, Dodge Dart & Ford Pinto are all practically
"classics"!!!), but it will never be a classic beauty. To me, being
different isn't to be equated with being a great car, being a classic, or
even being beautiful. If it was, the Pontiac Aztec would still be in
production.

I look forward to the makeover of the 7-Series, when they can refine it,
work out the kinks, and smooth out some of it's lines. Which brings me back
to my original question: when are they going to do a makeover (however mild
that makeover may be) and does anybody have an photos/renditions of what is
to be expected?





"Corey Shuman" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Boy another whiner about about the Bangle. Do you realize that you are
> whining about exactly what has made BMW stand apart from other cars for
> upwards of 30 years now? When is the last time you mistook a new 5 or 7
> for a Diamante or an Accord? I remember in the early 80s about the M1,
> was this what to expect in the future? It was ugly, bulky and speed was
> the main concern. Now its a classic. Then there were the 6 series
> whiners. My favorite was I remeber someone calling the 635CSI a "german
> camaro", more people bitching about how BMW was steering away from
> their classic styling, blah, blah, the interior controls were too
> complicated, the rear climate control was completely idiotic.... etc,
> etc, etc..., Now this is also a classic. Last but not least was the
> whining about the e36, how it was a cheap 5 series knock off, it had no
> sportiness, and it was only a way to get a younger crowd into the
> dealership. Well, time will tell on this but people seem to like the
> M3...
> And the I-Drive?? geez... this is technology people, wake up an figure
> out how to use it!!! It is already being copied by Lexus, Infiniti and
> the new Lincoln Nerdigator is slated for a new central control system
> too. Hmm. sounds like BMW has done it again. Let me put it this way, if
> you are too lazy or stupid to learn about the controls in your car then
> you should buy something else, maybe a Civic. Learn how to use it and
> you will be impressed.
> I guess it can be summed up by a quote I once heard. it went something
> like this... The true measure of intelligence is the ability to adapt
> to change... if you cant deal with the new technology and body
> styles... well....
>

Go back to Fred's spreadsheet, in the US, the E65/66 7 series history:

2002 21,919 cars sold
2003 20,473
2004 16,155

Not good when you consider Mercedes S class is what 6 or 7 years old and
outsold the 7 series in 2004, OUCH!.....
"Dori A Schmetterling" > wrote in message
...
> Sells better in US than in Germany....According to the numbers you gave
> that means about 20 500 in 2003. In Germany only about 7900 sold, though
> on a population basis that's slightly more than the US...
>
> My ref website does yet show the data for 2004.
> http://www.kfz-auskunft.de/kfz/pkw_n...gen_2003b.html
>
> DAS
> --
> For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
> ---
>
> "bfd" > wrote in message
> ...
> Apparently, most US buyers are waiting for the revision as BMW U.S. 7
> series sales is really in the dumpster having only sold 1,576 cars in Dec.
> 04 and only 16,155 for Ytd 2004 (down a whopping 21.1%, Yikes!)
>
> http://myfilelocker.comcast.net/fdme...ries_Sales.pdf
>
>
> "Richard Wall" > wrote in message
> ...
> See latest copy of Auto Express (UK)
> "Meg R." > wrote in message
> news:GqcDd.22019$CH5.21578@fed1read01...
> Holy Cow.... I think somebody is a little bit sensitive. Corey, are you
> sleeping with Mr. Bangle? I simply asked when is BMW going to do the next
> 7 series makeover, and you interpret it as "whining". I think the only
> "whining" is to be found in your defensive rant. And after your tirade is
> done, my original question is never even answered!!! When are they doing
> a makeover?
>
> For the record, and since you brought the subject up, I do think the
> 7-Series has some issues. I did own a 2003 745i, but I lemon-lawed it
> after it was in the shop for over 45 days during my first 8 months of
> ownership. My problems all stemmed from the I-Drive. When one function
> went out, all the other functions fell like dominoes- just like a computer
> freezing up. I was unable to use the radio, stereo, i-drive related
> climate control, phone.... not what you expect from their flagship
> vehicle. And I was not alone in my grief, I know four other friends who
> have returned their 7s. I think that BMW made a big mistake in trying to
> seemlessly integrate so many components. Mechanics are not computer
> programmers, and I know that the mechanics that worked on my car would
> have loved to have the option of simply replacing a stereo or phone.
> Instead, when the i-drive failed, they would try (and fail) to
> successfully perform the automotive equivalent of a brain transplant.
>
> With regards to the styling of the car, I thought it was interesting, but
> it did have some obscure lines. I bought it because it was different, but
> I never thought it was a natural beauty, like say a Meredes CL500 or a
> Ferrari Dino. I'm sure the 745i will be a classic one day.... age will do
> that to all vehicles (even a Yugo, Dodge Dart & Ford Pinto are all
> practically "classics"!!!), but it will never be a classic beauty. To me,
> being different isn't to be equated with being a great car, being a
> classic, or even being beautiful. If it was, the Pontiac Aztec would
> still be in production.
>
> I look forward to the makeover of the 7-Series, when they can refine it,
> work out the kinks, and smooth out some of it's lines. Which brings me
> back to my original question: when are they going to do a makeover
> (however mild that makeover may be) and does anybody have an
> photos/renditions of what is to be expected?
>
>
>
>
>
> "Corey Shuman" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>> Boy another whiner about about the Bangle. Do you realize that you are
>> whining about exactly what has made BMW stand apart from other cars for
>> upwards of 30 years now? When is the last time you mistook a new 5 or 7
>> for a Diamante or an Accord? I remember in the early 80s about the M1,
>> was this what to expect in the future? It was ugly, bulky and speed was
>> the main concern. Now its a classic. Then there were the 6 series
>> whiners. My favorite was I remeber someone calling the 635CSI a "german
>> camaro", more people bitching about how BMW was steering away from
>> their classic styling, blah, blah, the interior controls were too
>> complicated, the rear climate control was completely idiotic.... etc,
>> etc, etc..., Now this is also a classic. Last but not least was the
>> whining about the e36, how it was a cheap 5 series knock off, it had no
>> sportiness, and it was only a way to get a younger crowd into the
>> dealership. Well, time will tell on this but people seem to like the
>> M3...
>> And the I-Drive?? geez... this is technology people, wake up an figure
>> out how to use it!!! It is already being copied by Lexus, Infiniti and
>> the new Lincoln Nerdigator is slated for a new central control system
>> too. Hmm. sounds like BMW has done it again. Let me put it this way, if
>> you are too lazy or stupid to learn about the controls in your car then
>> you should buy something else, maybe a Civic. Learn how to use it and
>> you will be impressed.
>> I guess it can be summed up by a quote I once heard. it went something
>> like this... The true measure of intelligence is the ability to adapt
>> to change... if you cant deal with the new technology and body
>> styles... well....
>>
>

"bfd" > wrote in message
news
> Go back to Fred's spreadsheet, in the US, the E65/66 7 series history:
>
> 2002 21,919 cars sold
> 2003 20,473
> 2004 16,155
>
> Not good when you consider Mercedes S class is what 6 or 7 years old and
> outsold the 7 series in 2004, OUCH!.....

There is a context to that statement that you fail to present. The segment
at large is doing poorly, with the exception of the A8L (and they sell very
few of them comparatively). All major players are losing market sales for
their big models. By percentage this year BMW lost more than Merc did, and
last year Merc lost more than BMW did. Plus, I don't think the E65 is much
of a matter anyway. BMW never sold many so it was an appropriate platform to
experiment on with drastic form changes. The 7 never had the cache the S
did, probably never will, and at this level of car that matters immensely.
Few people in this segment really buy a car based on dynamics and for BMW
that is a negative because they simply don't do luxury as good as Merc or
Audi (not that they can't, but they just don't). I don't think it matters
much how approachable the exterior design was, the car with a Roundel isn't
a good competitor to the car with the 3-pointed star if the criteria is
cache and luxury.

In the case of the E60, which despite comments on this ng, isn't really as
drastic, BMW had the 2nd best NA selling year for the 5 series in the
company history (just missing the best year by 1500 cars, or a week and a
half of normal sales). That's pretty good in a difficult market, with an
"old" 6 cylinder engine, and pretty good when one considers the wealth of
misinformed misguided comments made about the car. Genuine informed
disagreement or dislike is one thing, but the E60 suffered from some
comments that originated with people (both lay and professional) who were
factually incorrect.

With the stronger more efficient I6 in the E60 this year I'd imagine they
should have a great selling year again for that model. It is important to
BMW because even though the sell more 3's, they make more total profit from
5's.

And I don't think any exterior design changes in the 7 is going to
appreciably increase sales beyond the floating levels of 16,000 to 21,000
they've been at for a long time. Probably the only place units sales can
increase with impact, at least in automobile sales, is in the 5 series.

I haven't looked at worldwide sales, I probably should take the time to see
how BMW's numbers look compared to the last few years.

"Bradburn Fentress" > wrote in message
...

> In the case of the E60, which despite comments on this ng, isn't really as
> drastic, BMW had the 2nd best NA selling year for the 5 series in the
> company history

Just one caveat to my comment on 5 series sales: 2003 was a combo year
meaning both e39 and e60 made up that record total sales (33,216 being
e39s).

If one looks at only platform to platform sales the best year for e39 was
40,842 in 2002 and the best year for e60 was 2004 at 45,501 (after deducting
the 83 E39 Touring and M5 units sold in 2004).

Obviously e60 increased 5 series NA sales over e39's *best* year by some
11-12%. And that means the most widely accepted and purchased 5 series car
in history in North America is the 2004 e60. No matter which way you look at
it, and no matter what you think of design, that is a spectacular showing
for a car. Particularly one that many vocal people on this ng thought would
kill sales.

Regardless of whether I like BMW's new designs or not (and I am 2 for 4 on
"likes") I simply don't see the downside to their styling change or
direction.

I never liked all their cars, or thought all of them were good looking
anyway :^) And I am still in the same boat!

Exactly so!

But what I find interesting is the arrival of the big Audis at the top of
the league. By a combination of good engineering and great marketing this
VW division -- which has no modern history in the upmarket sector -- has
become a rival to Merc.

Talk about lifting oneself up by one's bootstraps...

But now the management seems to be confused about what is top of the tree.
One of their fanciest saloons is in fact labelled VW (the Phaeton). And
they own expensive Italian marques.

DAS
--
For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
---

"Bradburn Fentress" > wrote in message
...
[...]
> The 7 never had the cache the S
> did, probably never will, and at this level of car that matters immensely.
[...]

"Dori A Schmetterling" > wrote in message
...
> Exactly so!
>
> But what I find interesting is the arrival of the big Audis at the top of
> the league. By a combination of good engineering and great marketing this
> VW division -- which has no modern history in the upmarket sector -- has
> become a rival to Merc.

I can't speak to Euro or global markets but in the US Audi is no competitor
to either BMW or Merc. In 2004 they sold 5,943 A8/A8L here and Merc sold
over 20,000 S-Class. In a comparative sense they sell very few cars in NA
vs. BMW and Merc.

Hey, didn't BMW outsell Mercedes worldwide this year?

> But now the management seems to be confused about what is top of the tree.
> One of their fanciest saloons is in fact labelled VW (the Phaeton). And
> they own expensive Italian marques.

I think the A8 is gourgeous. I really do (though I am not as excited about
the frilly colorful interior like most car mags are). Truth is though, for
this class of car at this level of luxury, most Audi's are too slow on the
standing start acceleration. In the US that matters to big luxury car buyers
as well.

One shouldn't have to look for speed data at this level of car. They should
all have that Rolls/Bentley confidence that horsepower and speed are
"sufficient". Audi is somewhat less than that and will remain that way until
they build better engines which can be geared appropriately and still be
valuable to the company's CAFE calculations.


>
> DAS
> --
> For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
> ---
>
> "Bradburn Fentress" > wrote in message
> ...
> [...]
> > The 7 never had the cache the S
> > did, probably never will, and at this level of car that matters
immensely.
> [...]
>
>

FWIW, German registration data by manufacturer for 2003. Unfortunately that
website doesn't have 2004 figs yet.

http://www.kfz-auskunft.de/kfz/rangl...ller_2003.html

Merc way ahead of BMW. Audi slightly ahead of BMW.

Of course in 2004 there could have been a big shift and this does not say
anything about global sales anyway.


In the UK YTD Oct 04:

BMW: 82 500
Merc: 70 500
Audi: 68 000

Cf:

Ford: 324 200
Vauxhall (GM): 287 900
Renault: 166 200
VW: 156 400.
Toyota: 108 300.


For Merc the biggest sales territories are Germany, USA, UK in that order.

Might be similar for BMW.

A bit of research might turn up the sum of those three markets for a
first-pass global comparison.

DAS
--
For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
---

"Bradburn Fentress" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Dori A Schmetterling" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Exactly so!
>>
>> But what I find interesting is the arrival of the big Audis at the top of
>> the league. By a combination of good engineering and great marketing
>> this
>> VW division -- which has no modern history in the upmarket sector -- has
>> become a rival to Merc.
>
> I can't speak to Euro or global markets but in the US Audi is no
> competitor
> to either BMW or Merc. In 2004 they sold 5,943 A8/A8L here and Merc sold
> over 20,000 S-Class. In a comparative sense they sell very few cars in NA
> vs. BMW and Merc.
>
> Hey, didn't BMW outsell Mercedes worldwide this year?
>
>> But now the management seems to be confused about what is top of the
>> tree.
>> One of their fanciest saloons is in fact labelled VW (the Phaeton). And
>> they own expensive Italian marques.
>
> I think the A8 is gourgeous. I really do (though I am not as excited about
> the frilly colorful interior like most car mags are). Truth is though, for
> this class of car at this level of luxury, most Audi's are too slow on the
> standing start acceleration. In the US that matters to big luxury car
> buyers
> as well.
>
> One shouldn't have to look for speed data at this level of car. They
> should
> all have that Rolls/Bentley confidence that horsepower and speed are
> "sufficient". Audi is somewhat less than that and will remain that way
> until
> they build better engines which can be geared appropriately and still be
> valuable to the company's CAFE calculations.
>
>
>>
>> DAS
>> --
>> For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
>> ---
>>
>> "Bradburn Fentress" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> [...]
>> > The 7 never had the cache the S
>> > did, probably never will, and at this level of car that matters
> immensely.
>> [...]
>>
>>
>
>