Surprising increase in truck MPG

Mike wrote:


>
> Have you ever actually run an E10 blend of fuel ?


Yes, where I live ethanol has been available for 45 years. I also live in
one of the few states that actually does checking on the ethanol content
of gasolines sold at the pump. Many states have no requirements for
labeling at the pump and those states that do require labeling most of
them have absolutely no enforcement of that requirement. The federal
government has no requirements for labeling ethanol content. The EPA
requires oxygenates in the areas that require it to attain clean air
compliance - that means almost all gas in those areas is using ethanol
since MTBE has been phased out. So the question is this - how do you know
what is in the fuel in your tank?

>I have, with several
> diffferent vehiclces and all of them got LESS MPG ON E10. Everyone I know that
> tried it also got LESS MPG ON E10. The gas stations also told people that they
> would get LESS MPG ON E10 !!! So why is it that you are the only one stating
> that you get better mpg on E10 ???

I'm not the only one If you read the next paragraph even you state that it
does occur. But more important why should I give any credit to what you
say? It's not like you take any responsibility for any of your claims.
It's not like you have made any effort to explore the facts or whether the
statements you make contain any truth.

The fact is that ethanol is an octane booster. That means oil refineries
can now produce base fuel stock at 83 octane and sell it as regular gas by
adding ethanol. When they refine 83 octane instead of 67 octane they get
3.5% more gasoline from a barrel of oil. That is pure profit in their
pocket. In addition to that for every gallon of ethanol they purchase they
get a 51 cent tax credit. More profit because the ethanol is actually
cheaper than gasoline at current oil and corn prices.

So while at the same time the oil companies are bad-mouthing ethanol they
are buying and selling as much as they can and laughing all the way to the
bank. Exxon Mobil announced recently that they are now selling only
ethanol gas at all of their terminals that are within reach of ethanol
plants - that is most of them. Many of the small refineries like Marathon
have been selling only ethanol blended gas for a few years.
So why should I take anything you say seriously? The stuff you claim
gives you better mileage might well have more ethanol in it than the stuff
you think gives you bad mileage.

> Even in the test results from the study
> that you posted only the flex fuel vehicle got better mpg on an ethanol blend.

Yes you did notice that. And that increased mileage was 15%. And that is
the point - given that almost every pump will have ethanol in a few years
(it may already be that way where you live) It is worth knowing that
engines can be designed and tuned to get significantly better mileage
using ethanol.


-jim



> They claim two other vehicles saw a 1% improvement with the etanol blend but
> if you read the way the tests were performed they have greater than a 1%
> margin of error.


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jim wrote:

>
> The fact is that ethanol is an octane booster.

Yup. One of many possible ones.

> That means oil refineries
> can now produce base fuel stock at 83 octane and sell it as regular gas by
> adding ethanol. When they refine 83 octane instead of 67 octane they get
> 3.5% more gasoline from a barrel of oil.


I'm gonna question that. My understanding is that the knock resistance
(which is really what the octane rating is) of retail gasoline is pretty
weakly dependent on the "base stock" except for contamination with
long-chain HCs more akin to diesel and kerosene that might be present
and would lower octane significantly. Anything in the octane ranges we
see at the pump ((R+M)/2 method) is going to be totally dominated by the
additive package, not by the base stock. So if they don't add ethanol,
they still have to add something ELSE. I'm certainly no chemical
engineer, but I have never read anything to indicate that gas companies
are getting to the octane ratings we see at the pump purely through
producing highly refined base stock gasoline. Its ALWAYS brought up with
additives.

Steve wrote:
>
> jim wrote:
>
> >
> > The fact is that ethanol is an octane booster.
>
> Yup. One of many possible ones.
>
> > That means oil refineries
> > can now produce base fuel stock at 83 octane and sell it as regular gas by
> > adding ethanol. When they refine 83 octane instead of 67 octane they get
> > 3.5% more gasoline from a barrel of oil.
>
> I'm gonna question that. My understanding is that the knock resistance
> (which is really what the octane rating is) of retail gasoline is pretty
> weakly dependent on the "base stock" except for contamination with
> long-chain HCs more akin to diesel and kerosene that might be present
> and would lower octane significantly. Anything in the octane ranges we
> see at the pump ((R+M)/2 method) is going to be totally dominated by the
> additive package, not by the base stock.

Well it is possible to make the base blend high enough octane to not need
additives at any rate some of what you may call additives are petroleum
distillates. What comes down to is the base stock does have a octane
number and since that is the largest component that is the biggest factor
in what the final octane is at the pump.


>So if they don't add ethanol,
> they still have to add something ELSE.


You mean like MTBE?
Lead used to be added to boost octane. MTBE became popular when lead was
phased out. MTBE has as high octane as ethanol but even less energy per
gallon. MTBE has been widely used to boost octane in the last 20 years.
But MTBE is now being phased out.

Gasoline is not a well defined single chemical it's made of a mix of
different molecules each of them has a different octane rating. In theory
the total octane is the weighted sum of its parts. In general higher
octane components cost more to refine and some of the higher octane
molecules are formed by additional refining of lower octane components.

But to address the question - yes it is possible to have the blendstock
have high enough octane by itself. 98 octane is not impossible it is just
more expensive to refine.


< I'm certainly no chemical
> engineer, but I have never read anything to indicate that gas companies
> are getting to the octane ratings we see at the pump purely through
> producing highly refined base stock gasoline. Its ALWAYS brought up with
> additives.

If additives can be added cheaper than more refining then there is a big
incentive to do that.

-jim


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"jim" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Mike wrote:
>
>
>>
>> Have you ever actually run an E10 blend of fuel ?
>
>
> Yes, where I live ethanol has been available for 45 years. I also live in
> one of the few states that actually does checking on the ethanol content
> of gasolines sold at the pump. Many states have no requirements for
> labeling at the pump and those states that do require labeling most of
> them have absolutely no enforcement of that requirement. The federal
> government has no requirements for labeling ethanol content. The EPA
> requires oxygenates in the areas that require it to attain clean air
> compliance - that means almost all gas in those areas is using ethanol
> since MTBE has been phased out. So the question is this - how do you know
> what is in the fuel in your tank?

The states I have lived in were all required to label the pumps if they were
dispensing E10 and all pumps were labeled as such.


>
>>I have, with several
>> diffferent vehiclces and all of them got LESS MPG ON E10. Everyone I know
>> that
>> tried it also got LESS MPG ON E10. The gas stations also told people that
>> they
>> would get LESS MPG ON E10 !!! So why is it that you are the only one
>> stating
>> that you get better mpg on E10 ???
>
> I'm not the only one If you read the next paragraph even you state that it
> does occur.

I didn't state anything occurs, I metioned the test results that claimed the
flex fuel vehicle got better mileage with an ethanol blend.


But more important why should I give any credit to what you
> say? It's not like you take any responsibility for any of your claims.
> It's not like you have made any effort to explore the facts or whether the
> statements you make contain any truth.


I didn't make ANY claims except the one about my personal experience with
E10 in which I got worse mpg with E10. I actually tried E10, got less mpg with
E10 and stated that fact right here. What is there to back up ????

>
> The fact is that ethanol is an octane booster. That means oil refineries
> can now produce base fuel stock at 83 octane and sell it as regular gas by
> adding ethanol. When they refine 83 octane instead of 67 octane they get
> 3.5% more gasoline from a barrel of oil. That is pure profit in their
> pocket. In addition to that for every gallon of ethanol they purchase they
> get a 51 cent tax credit. More profit because the ethanol is actually
> cheaper than gasoline at current oil and corn prices.
>
> So while at the same time the oil companies are bad-mouthing ethanol they
> are buying and selling as much as they can and laughing all the way to the
> bank. Exxon Mobil announced recently that they are now selling only
> ethanol gas at all of their terminals that are within reach of ethanol
> plants - that is most of them. Many of the small refineries like Marathon
> have been selling only ethanol blended gas for a few years.
> So why should I take anything you say seriously? The stuff you claim
> gives you better mileage might well have more ethanol in it than the stuff
> you think gives you bad mileage.
>
>> Even in the test results from the study
>> that you posted only the flex fuel vehicle got better mpg on an ethanol
>> blend.
>
> Yes you did notice that. And that increased mileage was 15%. And that is
> the point

No, that was not the point. You claimed that E10 increased mpg over regular
gasoline in non flex fuel vehicles. Everyone else stated that was not the case
in their experience.


- given that almost every pump will have ethanol in a few years
> (it may already be that way where you live) It is worth knowing that
> engines can be designed and tuned to get significantly better mileage
> using ethanol.


I would tend to agree that if an engine was designed to run on an ethanol
blend it may get better mileage. The only problem is that ethanol blends
aren't that common in some areas. The real question is will the manufacturers
build a vehicle capable of getter better milage on a fuel that isn't widely
available ? And if it the market demand increases for ethanol can production
keep up, and will that in turn increase the price canceling the savings ? I
wouldn't put all my money on ethanol just yet.

>
>
> -jim
>
>
>
>> They claim two other vehicles saw a 1% improvement with the etanol blend
>> but
>> if you read the way the tests were performed they have greater than a 1%
>> margin of error.
>
>
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