Alcohol as a fuel

I went on business trip the Brasil last week. Pretty much all the gas
stations sold alcohol as a fuel and at most if not all pumps. (I didn't
know enough Portuguese to be able to ascertain if it's 100% alcohol or a
mix with gas). The price was about 1/2 that of gas, tho at $3.50 a
gallon that's no bargain.

What's the advantage or otherwise of alcohol as a fuel for street cars?
The Taxi I drove in seemed to run fine on it. I presume it's ethanol.
There is a small number of ethanol ready vehicles in the US, but by far
the minority of what's generally available. I haven't seen any ethanol
or alcohol for sale in Tennessee or the surrounding states.

As a renewal and green energy source, I wonder why it is not more widely
available in the US? The oil companies sell both regular gas and alcohol
at the same pumps, so they get their money either way. Struck me as odd
that an emerging economy is years ahead of the US.

JP

--
JP White

I lived in Brasil in the 70's when the alcohol project was beginning.

The advantage was that, since Brasil had essentially no major fossil
petroleum deposits at that time and that gasoline was an issue for a country
as populous as Brasil, alcohol from fermentation could be applied as a fuel.

We lived under a military dictatorship in those days, and
this program was championed as it probably could not have been in a
democratic society.

There was plenty of sugar, cassava, etc from which ethyl alcohol could be
made. Cars were developed that would run on 100% alcohol.

Now, the table has turned a bit. The producers may have better markets for
their raw materials than to convert it to motor fuel.

A lot of what you see is a blend of alcohol with gasoline but there may
still be some remnants of the old program around.

I met with a friend and colleague from PetroBras in January, and he
confirmed that the old 100% alcohol replacement for gasoline is essentially
'history'.

I guess no one has heard of gas-o-hol? Its in our marine gas pumps and has
been for quite a while.
A big ta-do over in-tank water and gas not mixing versus alcohol and in-tank
water being able to mix is a big deal on boats . Last time I checked it was
at 10%. It gives folks issues with fuel line materials in that it is
shortens the life of fuel lines not constructed to handle the alcohol
content. Just my .02

JP White wrote:
> I went on business trip the Brasil last week. Pretty much all the gas
> stations sold alcohol as a fuel and at most if not all pumps. (I didn't
> know enough Portuguese to be able to ascertain if it's 100% alcohol or a
> mix with gas). The price was about 1/2 that of gas, tho at $3.50 a
> gallon that's no bargain.
>
> What's the advantage or otherwise of alcohol as a fuel for street cars?
> The Taxi I drove in seemed to run fine on it. I presume it's ethanol.
> There is a small number of ethanol ready vehicles in the US, but by far
> the minority of what's generally available. I haven't seen any ethanol
> or alcohol for sale in Tennessee or the surrounding states.
>
> As a renewal and green energy source, I wonder why it is not more widely
> available in the US? The oil companies sell both regular gas and alcohol
> at the same pumps, so they get their money either way. Struck me as odd
> that an emerging economy is years ahead of the US.
>
> JP
>
The only advantages are that 1) it has a very high octane, and 2) it is
renewable.

It's disadvantages are that it contains only half the energy content per
gallon compared to gasoline, so with the same size tank, the range is
cut almost in half. I say almost because if the engine is made
specifically for ethanol one could raise CR a bit and gain some thermal
efficiency.

Its emissions are a mixed bag. Apparently less CO, but still lots of
greenhouse gases, and more complex hydrocarbons in emissions.

It can negatively affect fuel system components in fuel system if that
system has not been designed specifically for ethanol.

Worst, in my opinion, is that today most ethanol is made by processing
(heating) with natural gas or petroleum. So it is unclear how much
petroleum we are actually saving. If the ethanol industry would convert
to none-fossil-fuel process, that would be something else.

Basically the big scam now is they are adding 'alcohol' to our fuel
because it is 'politically' correct and ups their profit margin to the
extreme!

When they add that 5 or 10% 'alcohol', the gas mileage on most vehicles
drops by 30 to 50% so by making farmers feel good, they are making us
fill up twice as often.

Just one of my Jeeps for instance gets well over 350 miles plus on a
tank of 'real' gasoline. Add alcohol and I am out of gas at 200 - 225
miles. Off road I don't get 100 miles with that mix vs an easy 200
miles running gas.

It is a total rip off scam.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

JP White wrote:
>
> I went on business trip the Brasil last week. Pretty much all the gas
> stations sold alcohol as a fuel and at most if not all pumps. (I didn't
> know enough Portuguese to be able to ascertain if it's 100% alcohol or a
> mix with gas). The price was about 1/2 that of gas, tho at $3.50 a
> gallon that's no bargain.
>
> What's the advantage or otherwise of alcohol as a fuel for street cars?
> The Taxi I drove in seemed to run fine on it. I presume it's ethanol.
> There is a small number of ethanol ready vehicles in the US, but by far
> the minority of what's generally available. I haven't seen any ethanol
> or alcohol for sale in Tennessee or the surrounding states.
>
> As a renewal and green energy source, I wonder why it is not more widely
> available in the US? The oil companies sell both regular gas and alcohol
> at the same pumps, so they get their money either way. Struck me as odd
> that an emerging economy is years ahead of the US.
>
> JP
>
> --
> JP White
>

"Don Stauffer" > wrote in message
news:1115126964.dfee11e16be88c80c6cf9547c94b6307@t eranews...
> JP White wrote:
>> I went on business trip the Brasil last week. Pretty much all the gas
>> stations sold alcohol as a fuel and at most if not all pumps. (I didn't
>> know enough Portuguese to be able to ascertain if it's 100% alcohol or a
>> mix with gas). The price was about 1/2 that of gas, tho at $3.50 a gallon
>> that's no bargain.
>>
>> What's the advantage or otherwise of alcohol as a fuel for street cars?
>> The Taxi I drove in seemed to run fine on it. I presume it's ethanol.
>> There is a small number of ethanol ready vehicles in the US, but by far
>> the minority of what's generally available. I haven't seen any ethanol or
>> alcohol for sale in Tennessee or the surrounding states.
>>
>> As a renewal and green energy source, I wonder why it is not more widely
>> available in the US? The oil companies sell both regular gas and alcohol
>> at the same pumps, so they get their money either way. Struck me as odd
>> that an emerging economy is years ahead of the US.
>>
>> JP
>>
> The only advantages are that 1) it has a very high octane, and 2) it is
> renewable.
>
<snip>

Higher octane = lower combustion temperature

Except in a car that requires this, when is it an advantage?

Richard wrote:

> Higher octane = lower combustion temperature
>

Incorrect. Octane has nothing to do with combustion temperature, octane
rating is a measure of how easily the fuel self-ignites at high
temperature. High octane -> resistance to self ignition.

> Except in a car that requires this, when is it an advantage?

The higher you make any engine's compression ratio, the more
thermodynamically efficient the engine is. High octane allows a
spark-ignition engine to operate at a higher compression ratio without
damaging detonation, so higher octane allows designers to build more
efficient engines.

But you're right in that if you take a low-compression engine and feed
it high-octane fuel, you gain nothing.

> As a renewal and green energy source, I wonder why it is not more widely
> available in the US?

Because the amount of energy you have to put IN to the process of making
alcohol pretty much offsets the amount you get OUT when you burn it.
Some claim that producing alcohol for fuel results in a net energy loss,
but whether its loss or small gain it is definitely so close to the
break-even point that its not a terribly practical fuel.

The reason its cheap in some places is that its heavily subsidized.
Subsidies like that could never prop it up as a mainstream fuel, but
make it look tantalizing when it can be a "boutique" fuel as in today's
market.

"Steve" > wrote in message
...
> Richard wrote:
>
>> Higher octane = lower combustion temperature
>>
>
> Incorrect. Octane has nothing to do with combustion temperature, octane
> rating is a measure of how easily the fuel self-ignites at high
> temperature. High octane -> resistance to self ignition.
>
>> Except in a car that requires this, when is it an advantage?
>
> The higher you make any engine's compression ratio, the more
> thermodynamically efficient the engine is. High octane allows a
> spark-ignition engine to operate at a higher compression ratio without
> damaging detonation, so higher octane allows designers to build more
> efficient engines.
>
> But you're right in that if you take a low-compression engine and feed it
> high-octane fuel, you gain nothing.
>
You're right.
I meant to say higher octane = higher combustion temperature, which while
still not technically correct, you've made the point of what I was getting
at. Thanks for the clarification.
I should have also said, "except in an *engine* that requires this ..."

"Steve" > wrote in message
...
>
>
>> As a renewal and green energy source, I wonder why it is not more widely
>> available in the US?
>
> Because the amount of energy you have to put IN to the process of making
> alcohol pretty much offsets the amount you get OUT when you burn it. Some
> claim that producing alcohol for fuel results in a net energy loss, but
> whether its loss or small gain it is definitely so close to the break-even
> point that its not a terribly practical fuel.
>
<snip>
>
Is this measured in dollars only, or are the cost of war and lives and
pollution (does alcohol burn cleaner? I don't know) also considered?