41 MPG city Fusion Hybrid more efficient than Camry Hybrid's 33 MPG

Retired VIP wrote:
>
> On Tue, 10 Feb 2009 06:44:19 -0500, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"
> > wrote:
>
> >In article >,
> > Retired VIP > wrote:
> >
> >> Anything which makes the engine work
> >> harder uses up your energy budget faster and it doesn't make any
> >> difference if you have a big, high voltage battery and electric motor
> >> in the equation or not.
> >
> >Well, that part I will heartily disagree with.
> >
> >The battery buffer and electric AC are a much more efficient way to use
> >that energy than, say, how a standard car does it.
>
> I'm surprised at you Elmo. Why do you think that throwing away energy
> on energy conversion inefficiency is a more efficient way to use
> energy?

The reason it can be more efficient is that you are dealing with an
extremely inefficient system to begin with. As a system the ICE driven car
is usually about 25% efficient. That is, 75% of the energy is completely
wasted. So even if there are losses in conversion if the new system is much
more efficient you can still have a net gain. The point that was being made
is that for a variety of reasons the Prius has an AC system which is more
efficient than AC in conventional cars and that it uses less gasoline to
run.

> Learn about Ohm's Law and what it teaches about power loss.
> Learn about battery chemistry and how electrical energy is converted
> into chemical energy and then back into electrical energy.

You could take your own advice.

-jim

>
> Jack j

On Tue, 10 Feb 2009 10:35:03 -0600, jim >
wrote:

>
>
>Retired VIP wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, 10 Feb 2009 06:44:19 -0500, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >In article >,
>> > Retired VIP > wrote:
>> >
>> >> Anything which makes the engine work
>> >> harder uses up your energy budget faster and it doesn't make any
>> >> difference if you have a big, high voltage battery and electric motor
>> >> in the equation or not.
>> >
>> >Well, that part I will heartily disagree with.
>> >
>> >The battery buffer and electric AC are a much more efficient way to use
>> >that energy than, say, how a standard car does it.
>>
>> I'm surprised at you Elmo. Why do you think that throwing away energy
>> on energy conversion inefficiency is a more efficient way to use
>> energy?
>
>The reason it can be more efficient is that you are dealing with an
>extremely inefficient system to begin with. As a system the ICE driven car
>is usually about 25% efficient. That is, 75% of the energy is completely
>wasted. So even if there are losses in conversion if the new system is much
>more efficient you can still have a net gain. The point that was being made
>is that for a variety of reasons the Prius has an AC system which is more
>efficient than AC in conventional cars and that it uses less gasoline to
>run.

And adding a high voltage alternator, high voltage battery, electric
motor, a second input to the transmission and all the associated
control circuitry and wiring will increase this efficiency exactly
how?

And what is it about the Prius's AC system that makes it more
efficient than the AC in other cars? Also, why don't other car
manufacturers, including Toyota, copy this marvel in AC efficiency?

>
>> Learn about Ohm's Law and what it teaches about power loss.
>> Learn about battery chemistry and how electrical energy is converted
>> into chemical energy and then back into electrical energy.
>
>You could take your own advice.
>
I repeat. "Learn about what you are talking about before setting
yourself up as an expert."

I'm done. Have a good life.

Retired VIP wrote:
>
> On Tue, 10 Feb 2009 10:35:03 -0600, jim >
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >Retired VIP wrote:
> >>
> >> On Tue, 10 Feb 2009 06:44:19 -0500, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"
> >> > wrote:
> >>
> >> >In article >,
> >> > Retired VIP > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Anything which makes the engine work
> >> >> harder uses up your energy budget faster and it doesn't make any
> >> >> difference if you have a big, high voltage battery and electric motor
> >> >> in the equation or not.
> >> >
> >> >Well, that part I will heartily disagree with.
> >> >
> >> >The battery buffer and electric AC are a much more efficient way to use
> >> >that energy than, say, how a standard car does it.
> >>
> >> I'm surprised at you Elmo. Why do you think that throwing away energy
> >> on energy conversion inefficiency is a more efficient way to use
> >> energy?
> >
> >The reason it can be more efficient is that you are dealing with an
> >extremely inefficient system to begin with. As a system the ICE driven car
> >is usually about 25% efficient. That is, 75% of the energy is completely
> >wasted. So even if there are losses in conversion if the new system is much
> >more efficient you can still have a net gain. The point that was being made
> >is that for a variety of reasons the Prius has an AC system which is more
> >efficient than AC in conventional cars and that it uses less gasoline to
> >run.
>
> And adding a high voltage alternator, high voltage battery, electric
> motor, a second input to the transmission and all the associated
> control circuitry and wiring will increase this efficiency exactly
> how?

Telling you exactly how would be a wasted effort.

With your logic there would be no transmissions stuck onto engines. After
all that is just a conversion that adds a bunch of energy losses that
wouldn't be there otherwise. it makes no sense to be adding energy losses
due to friction between gears - Right?


>
> And what is it about the Prius's AC system that makes it more
> efficient than the AC in other cars? Also, why don't other car

>
> >
> >> Learn about Ohm's Law and what it teaches about power loss.
> >> Learn about battery chemistry and how electrical energy is converted
> >> into chemical energy and then back into electrical energy.
> >
> >You could take your own advice.
> >
> I repeat. "Learn about what you are talking about before setting
> yourself up as an expert."
>
> I'm done. Have a good life.


You were done from the beginning.

On Feb 10, 12:15*pm, Retired VIP >
wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Feb 2009 10:35:03 -0600, jim >
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >Retired VIP wrote:
>
> >> On Tue, 10 Feb 2009 06:44:19 -0500, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"
> >> > wrote:
>
> >> >In article >,
> >> > Retired VIP > wrote:
>
> >> >> Anything which makes the engine work
> >> >> harder uses up your energy budget faster and it doesn't make any
> >> >> difference if you have a big, high voltage battery and electric motor
> >> >> in the equation or not.
>
> >> >Well, that part I will heartily disagree with.
>
> >> >The battery buffer and electric AC are a much more efficient way to use
> >> >that energy than, say, how a standard car does it.
>
> >> I'm surprised at you Elmo. *Why do you think that throwing away energy
> >> on energy conversion inefficiency is a more efficient way to use
> >> energy?
>
> >The reason it can be more efficient is that you are dealing with an
> >extremely inefficient system to begin with. As a system the ICE driven car
> >is usually about 25% efficient. That is, 75% of the energy is completely
> >wasted. So even if there are losses in conversion if the new system is much
> >more efficient you can still have a net gain. The point that was being made
> >is that for a variety of reasons the Prius has an AC system which is more
> >efficient than AC in conventional cars and that it uses less gasoline to
> >run.
>
> And adding a high voltage alternator, high voltage battery, electric
> motor, a second input to the transmission and all the associated
> control circuitry and wiring will increase this efficiency exactly
> how?

The Prius doesn't have an alternator. Nor does it have a belt-driven
compressor. The belt increases the friction (even the belt just going
around the pulley takes energy) in the system, decreasing the
efficiency. By using an electrically driven compressor, the compressor
can be placed where it works best, instead of bolted to the engine,
there is less friction, the engine doesn't have to be running when the
A/C is on, all increasing efficiency. Another thing is that on some
cars, the temperature of the air coming out is adjusted by using heat
from the engine. This doesn't occur in the Prius, however.

Jeff

> And what is it about the Prius's AC system that makes it more
> efficient than the AC in other cars? *Also, why don't other car
> manufacturers, including Toyota, copy this marvel in AC efficiency?
>
>
>
> >> Learn about Ohm's Law and what it teaches about power loss.
> >> Learn about battery chemistry and how electrical energy is converted
> >> into chemical energy and then back into electrical energy.
>
> >You could take your own advice.
>
> I repeat. *"Learn about what you are talking about before setting
> yourself up as an expert."
>
> I'm done. *Have a good life.

Jeff wrote:

>
>> And what is it about the Prius's AC system that makes it more
>> efficient than the AC in other cars? Also, why don't other car
>> manufacturers, including Toyota, copy this marvel in AC efficiency?
>>

Its the electric compressor- probably the Sanden version but maybe
someone else's like Denso, I don't know. Sanden was a bit ahead of the
rest (as usual) last time I looked:

http://www.sanden.com/index.php?id=TSPM4GG46

Other cars don't use it right now because you just can't make it
efficient on a 13.8-volt electrical system- the current draw would be so
large that ohmic losses in the compressor wiring would offset the
potential benefits. Remember that a typical small-to-midsize car needs
an air-conditioner with a cooling capacity similar to a 4-bedroom house,
so you're talking about a motor that is several horsepower just for the
AC compressor. That's easy when you drive it from the gasoline engine,
not so easy when it has to be electric.

GM (and others) have been rumbling about going to a 50-volt (or even
higher) electrical system even on fully-conventional drivetrain vehicles
for exactly this reason. With the higher voltage, current goes down and
efficiency goes up. That also facilitates better versions of electric
power steering, electric power-assist brakes, etc. The downside is that
to use the huge range of standardized 13.8-volt parts (headlamps,
taillamps, dash lamps, radios, stereos, aftermarket accessories, etc.)
you have to have a DC-DC convertor to generate at least some 13.8 volt
power from the primary high-voltage batteries. It will happen, soon.