Where can we get statistics of which BIKES pass the CaliforniaDMV riding test?

On Mon, 13 Sep 2010 20:03:47 -0700, Tim wrote:
> You are obviously a finer rider than anyone *I* ever saw
> take the MSF riding test.

To compare the two tests with respect to realism and leniency:

A) Free MV written test (from memory):
- About 20 questions, some of which are purely whacko, graded rather
easily (I think something like a 70% is a pass), and if you read the
manual, all the questions are in the manual and sample tests online.
Certainty of passing: Almost 100% on the 1st try.

B) $200 MSF written test (from memory):
- About 50 questions, none of which are whacko, some of which you won't
agree with if you're an experienced rider but all of which are covered in
class. I'm not sure what is a percentage pass, but if you can stay awake
long enough in the class to suffer through endless diaribes (like the
never-ending counter-steering arguments for the pregnant moms or weight-
transfer discussions for the young kids, none of which will edify an
experienced rider). Certainty of passing: Almost 100% on the 1st try.

A) Free DMV riding test (from memory):
- First of all, it's not even close to realistic. Secondly, it's graded
on a Draconian one-mistake-you're-out scale. Worse yet, you get one try,
(per day, for three days). That means (and listen up all you self-
proclaimed "experts"), that means you have to pass it 100% of the time;
otherwise you're trusting your one-test to luck. So, those who say 'I can
do it" (and I can too), must be able to do it 100% of the time (I can't).
The point is that the free test is designed for you not to take it (see
contrast with the $200 alternative below).

B) $200 MSF riding test (from memory):
- First of all, it's wholly realistic, covering starting, stopping,
shifting, cornering, emergency stops and swerves, and yes, parking-lot
maneuvers. Where it differs from the DMV class (and, mind you, this is
the entire purpose, whether you understand that or not), is that it
passes everyone who couldn't pass the DMV test (otherwise there would be
a mutiny in California amongst all the new riders). It's the "way out".
You pay your money; you pass. Simple as that. You do only get one try,
but, the grading is so lenient that you'd have to practically drop the
bike to fail, and, I doubt that, in and of itself, would fail you if you
did everything else right.

To those of you who have taken BOTH tests, is anything I said NOT correct?

On Sep 14, 10:50*am, JoeSchmoe > wrote:

> B) $200 MSF riding test (from memory):
> - First of all, it's wholly realistic, covering starting, stopping,
> shifting, cornering, emergency stops and swerves, and yes, parking-lot
> maneuvers. Where it differs from the DMV class (and, mind you, this is
> the entire purpose, whether you understand that or not), is that it
> passes everyone who couldn't pass the DMV test (otherwise there would be
> a mutiny in California amongst all the new riders). It's the "way out".
> You pay your money; you pass. Simple as that. You do only get one try,
> but, the grading is so lenient that you'd have to practically drop the
> bike to fail, and, I doubt that, in and of itself, would fail you if you
> did everything else right.

Maybe that is your *opinion* of the purpose of the test in
California.

Hell, maybe that is actually the way California runs its rider
training program, although if it is, it is cetainly news to me.

However, I can *assure* you from standpoint of KNOWING (not guessing,
not opinion) that that is not the case for the Virginia Rider Trainig
Program's classes that utilize the MSF curriculum.

Having taught approximately 4,500 students over a 14-year period of
time, I know that the concept of "You pay your money; you pass. Simple
as that" would quickly get you fired from the program. Nor was it,
in fact, remotely the case. The failure rate in the MSF-curriculum
BRC class in Virginia when I was teaching the course was just under
10%.

And no, you were not permitted to come back and "try again" at some
later time or date. Not unless you took the complete class over
again.

There is no "DMV class" in Virginia, so when you refer to the
California "DMV class", I have no clue what you are talking about.

On Tue, 14 Sep 2010 08:32:40 -0700, Tim wrote:
> The failure rate in the MSF-curriculum BRC
> class in Virginia when I was teaching the course was just under 10%.

I was told by my MSF coach of a similar failure rate, but he said it was
mostly given to people who came late the second day.

While the MSF allows lots and lots of mistakes during the test, they do
have an admirably DMV-like strictness when it comes to arriving to class
on time.

You arrive late, even five minutes late to the early-morning class, and
you fail the MSF class.

Look at it from their standpoint ... they have to fail somebody because I
was in that class, and they didn't fail people who knocked over cones and
strayed six feet outside the boxes.

On Sep 14, 11:49*am, JoeSchmoe > wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Sep 2010 08:32:40 -0700, Tim wrote:
> > The failure rate in the MSF-curriculum BRC
> > class in Virginia when I was teaching the course was just under 10%.
>
> I was told by my MSF coach of a similar failure rate, but he said it was
> mostly given to people who came late the second day.

That differs from my experience. I would say that the percentage of
students who completed the first day of training who missed or were
late on the second day was significantly under 1/2 of one percent.

> While the MSF allows lots and lots of mistakes during the test, they do
> have an admirably DMV-like strictness when it comes to arriving to class
> on time.
> You arrive late, even five minutes late to the early-morning class, and
> you fail the MSF class.

The MSF (in Virginia) doesn't run the classes. The Virginia Rider
Training Program runs the classes, and is part of the DMV. They
simply use the MSF curriculum. The MSF curriculum for the basic rider
course assumes no knowledge of motorcycling whatsoever, which it must,
since many of the student of the course have no knowledge of
motorcycling at all. The curriculum is based on building blocks of
knowledge, from the ground up, and all building blocks subsequent to
motorcycle controls operation REQUIRE particiapation in and knowledge
of the motorcycle controls operation building blocks. This being an
extremely litigious society, the Virginia Rider Training Program did
not want (reasonably enough, in my opinion) an injured student to
relate to his or her lawyer that they "started riding a motorcycle"
with no training on how to operate the controls. Therefore, if the
class has already started learning how to operate the controls on a
motorcycle, a tardy student would not be permitted to take his or her
seat.

Now, of course, your personal experience with your class my well have
differed, since there is variation from state to state in how
individual rider training programs are conducted, even among those
programs that make use of the MSF curriculum. That is the perogative
of the authority conducting the classes. But what you describe is not
characteristic of the VRTP program, although disgruntled late arrivals
may well have their own axes to grind, even in Virginia.

> Look at it from their standpoint ... they have to fail somebody because I
> was in that class, and they didn't fail people who knocked over cones and
> strayed six feet outside the boxes.

This sounds like a sour grapes comment more than anything else.

On Sep 14, 2:51*pm, Twibil > wrote:
> On Sep 14, 8:32*am, Tim > wrote:
>
>
>
> > There is no "DMV class" in Virginia, so when you refer to the
> > California "DMV class", I have no clue what you are talking about.
>
> There's no "DMV class" in California, either. *He either thinks the
> DMV and the MSF are parts of the same entity, he's trying to imply
> that that's the case, or he's simply ignorant.
>
> The California MSF courses are given by a wide variety of entities,
> including for-profit private enterprise schools, motorcyle dealers,
> the Honda corporation, various community and state colleges, and the
> military; including both the Marine Corps and the Air Force.
>
> All of them fall under the administrative umbrella of the CHP, but the
> CHP merely checks to be sure all the schools teach the same standard
> MSF curriculum and have qualified teachers: they don't teach the
> courses themselves or set the rates; which explains why the rates vary
> from one provider to the next.

IOW, the system is similar to that in Virginia, and the MSF is not
directly involved at all; it merely provides the nationally
standardized curriculum and standardized training for the riding
coaches..

Thanks, Pete.

On 9/14/2010 8:50 AM, JoeSchmoe wrote:
>
> A) Free DMV riding test (from memory):
> - First of all, it's not even close to realistic.

Your opinion. Note this, too - a test to qualify you for a license
doesn't NEED to be "realistic" in terms of being built solely on
real-world conditions and scenarios. It's SUPPOSED to be about
the rider demonstrating a sufficient level of skill re the ability to
control their bike. You will probably never have to endlessly
circle 20-foot-radius loops in the real world. But you should have
enough skill in handling your machine to be ABLE to do it.

To bring in an analogous example from another field, re demonstrating
control-of-your-machine skills: there's a maneuver any student pilot
learns that's called "turns around a point," and the examiner may very
well call upon you to demonstrate that if you're going for your pilot's
certificate. It's not because some air-traffic control type is ever going
to ask you to "circle that silo down there" - it's because the ABILITY
to do it demonstrates the you can apply a certain amount of several
skills, simultaneously, to the degree that would be expected of one
who meets the minimum-acceptable level re the operation of the aircraft.
In short, if you CAN'T do it - whether or not you'd ever actually do it
in normal flying - the FAA is not going to consider you a person they'd
want flying around without adult supervision. And rightly so.

Bob M.

On Sep 14, 2:16*pm, Bob Myers > wrote:
> To bring in an analogous example from another field, re demonstrating
> control-of-your-machine skills: there's a maneuver any student pilot
> learns that's called "turns around a point,"

Oh, yes. That reminds me of the first student pilot who told me about
"turns around a point."

He turned out to be gay...

On Sep 14, 6:35*pm, "?" > wrote:
>
>
> Oh, yes. That reminds me of the first student pilot who told me about
> "turns around a point."
>
> He turned out to be gay...

Um-hum. But isn't it a bit odd how all the people you've ever known
have turned out to be gay?

I mean, given that the odds are less than one in ten, you'd think that
at least a *few* of your friends would have been straight; but I
suppose it's a case of "like attracts like".

On Tue, 14 Sep 2010 09:15:03 -0700, Tim wrote:
>> Look at it from their standpoint ... they have to fail somebody because
>> I was in that class, and they didn't fail people who knocked over cones
>> and strayed six feet outside the boxes.
>
> This sounds like a sour grapes comment more than anything else.

Hi Tim,
How is that sour grapes? I passed the MSF riding test. Easily. Why would
I have sour grapes about that? They gave me a free pass for my license.
All I had to do was wait a few months to get into the class and pay $200
for the free license.

I can even pass the California DMV test, sometimes. Not many. But some
times. Even when I'm not the judge - because the only way to know (since
you can't even SEE the lines) is to have someone else grade you.

That still doesn't change the fact that the DMV test is designed to
funnel people into the MSF class and that bigger bore bikes will have a
difficult time circling an outside radius of 21 feet 9 inches every
single time with zero errors allowed in both directions after and before
gentle swerving and straightaways.

Since we don't seem to have ANY statistics for ANY state for which bikes
passed/failed their respective DMV tests, we're all guessing.

And, guess what. My guess is as good as yours (sans data).

On Tue, 14 Sep 2010 11:51:18 -0700, Twibil wrote:
> There's no "DMV class" in California, either.

I don't recall ever saying "DMV class" (please show where it was said by
me); but if I did, it was a typo. There's an MSF class; but not a DMV
class.

Just like there's a DMV riding test; and an MSF riding test.

I already explained that I've taken both riding tests. They have NOTHING
in common (as copiously explained already).

Why do you think they have nothing in common?

The only way these two tests could have nothing in common, is if they are
designed to funnel people from one to the other. You fail the DMV test,
you pass the MSF test. It's that simple.

But, don't take it from me. If we had the statistics, they'd show what
I'm saying incontrovertibly.

I'll wager the statistics will conclusively show that larger bore bikes
VERY OFTEN fail the DMV riding test. And, that almost everyone passes the
MSF riding test (after paying the MSF over $200 for the privilege) on
those tiny toy bikes.