Buying your tools at sears?

"Bill Vanek" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 19 Dec 2012 09:24:47 -0800, jim beam > wrote:
>
>>that's true enough. i recently bought a taiwanese ratchet that i think
>>is superior to my "dual 80" snap-on of unknown origin. but that might
>>not be a fair comparison - snap-on seem to have really lost the plot.
>>quality is down, they're not prepared to fly the flag that justifies the
>>price, and they've been screwing their distributors - they've lost
>>franchisees all over the bay area.
>
> My understanding is that Snap On has been getting its tools from China
> for several years now. I know guys still wrenching in dealerships that
> switched to Harbor Freight because they're so cheap, who cares if they
> break? And they know stuff breaks - they're not worried about getting
> hurt. They're tools are good enough for most work.

As you're likely well aware, it isn't just that they can or do break
(and yes, workers can and do sometimes get injured as either
a direct or indirect effect). The lack of precision tolerances on
cheap tools can result in poor fits that damage fasteners heads
rendering them difficult to remove even with the best of tools.

On Wed, 19 Dec 2012 22:40:04 -0600, "Gene" >
wrote:

>"Bill Vanek" > wrote in message
.. .
>> On Wed, 19 Dec 2012 09:24:47 -0800, jim beam > wrote:
>>
>>>that's true enough. i recently bought a taiwanese ratchet that i think
>>>is superior to my "dual 80" snap-on of unknown origin. but that might
>>>not be a fair comparison - snap-on seem to have really lost the plot.
>>>quality is down, they're not prepared to fly the flag that justifies the
>>>price, and they've been screwing their distributors - they've lost
>>>franchisees all over the bay area.
>>
>> My understanding is that Snap On has been getting its tools from China
>> for several years now. I know guys still wrenching in dealerships that
>> switched to Harbor Freight because they're so cheap, who cares if they
>> break? And they know stuff breaks - they're not worried about getting
>> hurt. They're tools are good enough for most work.
>
>As you're likely well aware, it isn't just that they can or do break
>(and yes, workers can and do sometimes get injured as either
>a direct or indirect effect). The lack of precision tolerances on
>cheap tools can result in poor fits that damage fasteners heads
>rendering them difficult to remove even with the best of tools.

There's no argument with that, but I'm in Las Vegas, where there's
rarely rusted fasteners, and dealer mechanics are usually working on
newer cars. You can get away with sloppy fits under those conditions.

bob urz > wrote:
>There sockets and such are generally good. If your not stupid
>and don't abuse them, they will last indefinitely. I would not
>recommend harbor for a professional mechanic that uses them
>every day. But for a backyard wrench, they are just fine
>for the most part. I got a 20+" breaker bar for the bone yard
>runs for $9.95. Cannot beat that. It got me some pinch bolts
>off that i would not have otherwise without issue.

A co-worker of mine buys their impact wrench sockets, and uses them with
a hand wrench. He says they are cheaper than the higher end hand wrench
sockets and about as good.

Personally, every product I have ever used from HF wound up failing in
a way that injured me. I don't like getting injured so I tend to avoid
their products. Or any cheap products. As noted, though, it's getting harder
to find stuff that is actually well-made.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
...
> ... it's getting harder to find stuff that is actually well-made.
> --scott

Are there no Snap-on, Mac Tools , Matco nor S-K dealers
in your immediate area or have their quality also declined?

In article >, Gene > wrote:
>"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
...
>> ... it's getting harder to find stuff that is actually well-made.
>
>Are there no Snap-on, Mac Tools , Matco nor S-K dealers
>in your immediate area or have their quality also declined?

Snap-on has severely declined, as has Mac. I don't think we have a Matco
dealer around here although I have got some decent stuff from S-K recently.
Also Wright makes some very good hand tools that I have been very happy
with, but they also seem to be hard to find.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 12/20/2012 07:50 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> In >, > wrote:
>> "Scott > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> ... it's getting harder to find stuff that is actually well-made.
>>
>> Are there no Snap-on, Mac Tools , Matco nor S-K dealers
>> in your immediate area or have their quality also declined?
>
> Snap-on has severely declined, as has Mac. I don't think we have a Matco
> dealer around here although I have got some decent stuff from S-K recently.
> Also Wright makes some very good hand tools that I have been very happy
> with, but they also seem to be hard to find.
> --scott
>

the thing that gets up my ass-crack about snap-on [and mac] more than
anything is their abandonment of the quick-release on their ratchet
heads. ok, so snap-on have brought back a couple of models after having
dropped them completely for a few years, but the point is, have none of
their management team ever /used/ a ratchet? have they never /spoken/
to someone who has? because there's nothing like a nice shiny chrome
socket and an oily hand for making a socket swap impossible.
quick-release solves that immediately.

oh, and the new generation of quick-releases that snap-on /did/ finally
bring back SUCK. their release button sticks out way too far, is far
too easy to press, and is much too big. absolutely no connection
between design and usage whatsoever.


--
fact check required

jim beam wrote:
> On 12/19/2012 11:07 AM, Steve W. wrote:
>> jim beam wrote:
>>> On 12/19/2012 08:42 AM, Steve W. wrote:
>>>> bob urz wrote:
>>>>> On 12/19/2012 4:41 AM, AD wrote:
>>>>>> [farting part snipped]
>>>>>>> Sears tools seem to me not up to what they used to be. When i have
>>>>>>> had ratchets replaced under the lifetime warranty, the replacements
>>>>>>> did not seem as robust to me. Not junk, but not as well made.
>>>>>> that's "make just good enough for satisfying the customer" part
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I was just recently looking at the Maxx Access tools and thought they
>>>>>>> might be nice to have. The good set is $80 or so. Reading the article
>>>>>> how much was bionic set going for before sears started to cut corners?
>>>>>>
>>>>> The max access are relatively new. They were on sale for $69 or so
>>>>> recently.
>>>>>
>>>>> I also noticed sears started selling the spline looking universal
>>>>> wrenches and such. I wonder if they ripped that off also?
>>>> The spline tools are nothing more than a misuse of industrial spline
>>>> drive that has been around for years (not a big seller unless you do
>>>> very specific work). Sears (and others) are telling folks how the
>>>> wrenches can be used for all the different fasteners. The problem is
>>>> that while they can be used that way they are not intended to be. The
>>>> splines have a very nasty habit of stripping the corners off fasteners
>>>> other than spline drive parts. They are also much weaker than a 6 or 12
>>>> point wrench simply by virtue of the lack of metal on the flats.
>>>>
>>>> Sears has used just about every tool maker at one point or another. With
>>>> many tool makers now having plants worldwide it is harder to tell where
>>>> the tool is actually made. In reality IF they use a good alloy and
>>>> quality control it doesn't matter much.
>>> in theory, with a little bit of chance taking, but there's no guessing
>>> involved with harbor freight. and very few made in usa tools, while
>>> finish may not be fab, will break and injure you.
>>
>> I break "made in USA" tools all the time. I have probably 30 Snap-On and
>> Mac tools waiting for replacement.
>
> dude, what on earth are you doing??? i've worn stuff out, and once
> split a kd socket, but broken? the only stuff i've broken is stuff i've
> abused like a 3/4" > 1/2" adapter marked [~] "max 600Nm" and that was
> when i'd loaded to about 900. it certainly didn't break within its
> design spec. and so i'm not asking for replacement.

NY RUST. Even with heat and lube some fasteners just don't want to come
loose.


>
>
>> On the flip side I have a junk yard
>> set from HF that I grabbed simply because I didn't want to lose stuff
>> while pulling parts.
>
> valid point. maybe i should do that. i had a snap-on socket rail go
> walkies at a junk yard not so long ago and i hate having to replace for
> reasons like that. but the problem is, h.f. are a crap fit, of highly
> questionable reliability and you need reliable tools at a junkyard where
> stuff is usually either neglected or abused.

That was the reason for the HF set. Had a 1/2 drive rail and ratchet
wander away a couple years ago.
Was VERY ****ed.

The set I have from HF actually fit pretty well. Plus with the rust and
crud I have no qualms about driving a socket on as needed.
If it breaks I just wander in and they replace it. When you consider
that I can buy the complete set from HF for the price of the ratchet &
the lack of high dollar logo also means they don't wander off.

>
>
>> In 4 years I have managed to break one combination
>> wrench and bent a ratchet. Both were replaced with no problem.
>>
>>>
>>>> The trend of "It's China made so
>>>> it's junk" is not really true. I have seen tools made in the US that are
>>>> worse junk than ones made in other countries.
>>> that's true enough. i recently bought a taiwanese ratchet that i think
>>> is superior to my "dual 80" snap-on of unknown origin. but that might
>>> not be a fair comparison - snap-on seem to have really lost the plot.
>>> quality is down, they're not prepared to fly the flag that justifies
>>> the price, and they've been screwing their distributors - they've lost
>>> franchisees all over the bay area.
>>>
>> Same here. The tool and storage guys are both gone from my area. Not
>> from lack of spending on my part....
>
> going back to your 30 replacements, apparently snap-on have recently
> started to insist franchisees replace breakages from their own stock and
> wait for factory replacement when they can be bothered to get around to
> it, thus costing franchisees a bunch of up-front money. with pricing
> and margins being what they are, the franchisees just had to quit - they
> were being starved.
>
>

I know the one guy started telling folks that he wouldn't replace tools
without the original receipt.
Guess the company logo stamped into the tools wasn't enough!
Warranty stuff is ALWAYS a PIA. With fuel costs and more people buying
less the margins are getting thin.

I was talking to a shop about 50 miles away this AM and he says that he
has a great truck there. Told me to box up the busted stuff and bring it
over and they will get it replaced till we get a truck back local. The
big advantage to SO/Mac/Matco/Cornwell was always that the tools came to
you.

I wonder how they handle broken stuff online? I know they don't sell
much of the diagnostics and such online, they refer you to a truck.

--
Steve W.

Bill Vanek wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Dec 2012 22:40:04 -0600, "Gene" >
> wrote:
>
>> "Bill Vanek" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> On Wed, 19 Dec 2012 09:24:47 -0800, jim beam > wrote:
>>>
>>>> that's true enough. i recently bought a taiwanese ratchet that i think
>>>> is superior to my "dual 80" snap-on of unknown origin. but that might
>>>> not be a fair comparison - snap-on seem to have really lost the plot.
>>>> quality is down, they're not prepared to fly the flag that justifies the
>>>> price, and they've been screwing their distributors - they've lost
>>>> franchisees all over the bay area.
>>> My understanding is that Snap On has been getting its tools from China
>>> for several years now. I know guys still wrenching in dealerships that
>>> switched to Harbor Freight because they're so cheap, who cares if they
>>> break? And they know stuff breaks - they're not worried about getting
>>> hurt. They're tools are good enough for most work.
>> As you're likely well aware, it isn't just that they can or do break
>> (and yes, workers can and do sometimes get injured as either
>> a direct or indirect effect). The lack of precision tolerances on
>> cheap tools can result in poor fits that damage fasteners heads
>> rendering them difficult to remove even with the best of tools.
>
> There's no argument with that, but I'm in Las Vegas, where there's
> rarely rusted fasteners, and dealer mechanics are usually working on
> newer cars. You can get away with sloppy fits under those conditions.


I LOVE new vehicles that haven't started rotting. Bolts and nuts that
come free with just a pull.
No rust/dirt/paint chips/ body filler falling out while your trying to
get out the damn rust welded bolts.

One of the reasons why I think they should rewrite the damn books with a
set of specs for new/southern vehicles and
one for northern rot prone locations. Especially areas that require
multiple levels of part removal to get to the actual piece.
That or use real world worst case numbers. Nothing like having a book
time for exhaust manifold removal that is less than what it will take
you to drill out the broken ones...


--
Steve W.

On 12/20/2012 09:36 AM, Steve W. wrote:
> jim beam wrote:
>> On 12/19/2012 11:07 AM, Steve W. wrote:
>>> jim beam wrote:
>>>> On 12/19/2012 08:42 AM, Steve W. wrote:
>>>>> bob urz wrote:
>>>>>> On 12/19/2012 4:41 AM, AD wrote:
>>>>>>> [farting part snipped]
>>>>>>>> Sears tools seem to me not up to what they used to be. When i have
>>>>>>>> had ratchets replaced under the lifetime warranty, the replacements
>>>>>>>> did not seem as robust to me. Not junk, but not as well made.
>>>>>>> that's "make just good enough for satisfying the customer" part
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I was just recently looking at the Maxx Access tools and thought
>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>> might be nice to have. The good set is $80 or so. Reading the
>>>>>>>> article
>>>>>>> how much was bionic set going for before sears started to cut
>>>>>>> corners?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> The max access are relatively new. They were on sale for $69 or so
>>>>>> recently.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I also noticed sears started selling the spline looking universal
>>>>>> wrenches and such. I wonder if they ripped that off also?
>>>>> The spline tools are nothing more than a misuse of industrial spline
>>>>> drive that has been around for years (not a big seller unless you do
>>>>> very specific work). Sears (and others) are telling folks how the
>>>>> wrenches can be used for all the different fasteners. The problem is
>>>>> that while they can be used that way they are not intended to be. The
>>>>> splines have a very nasty habit of stripping the corners off fasteners
>>>>> other than spline drive parts. They are also much weaker than a 6
>>>>> or 12
>>>>> point wrench simply by virtue of the lack of metal on the flats.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sears has used just about every tool maker at one point or another.
>>>>> With
>>>>> many tool makers now having plants worldwide it is harder to tell
>>>>> where
>>>>> the tool is actually made. In reality IF they use a good alloy and
>>>>> quality control it doesn't matter much.
>>>> in theory, with a little bit of chance taking, but there's no guessing
>>>> involved with harbor freight. and very few made in usa tools, while
>>>> finish may not be fab, will break and injure you.
>>>
>>> I break "made in USA" tools all the time. I have probably 30 Snap-On and
>>> Mac tools waiting for replacement.
>>
>> dude, what on earth are you doing??? i've worn stuff out, and once
>> split a kd socket, but broken? the only stuff i've broken is stuff
>> i've abused like a 3/4" > 1/2" adapter marked [~] "max 600Nm" and that
>> was when i'd loaded to about 900. it certainly didn't break within its
>> design spec. and so i'm not asking for replacement.
>
> NY RUST. Even with heat and lube some fasteners just don't want to come
> loose.
>
>
>>
>>
>>> On the flip side I have a junk yard
>>> set from HF that I grabbed simply because I didn't want to lose stuff
>>> while pulling parts.
>>
>> valid point. maybe i should do that. i had a snap-on socket rail go
>> walkies at a junk yard not so long ago and i hate having to replace
>> for reasons like that. but the problem is, h.f. are a crap fit, of
>> highly questionable reliability and you need reliable tools at a
>> junkyard where stuff is usually either neglected or abused.
>
> That was the reason for the HF set. Had a 1/2 drive rail and ratchet
> wander away a couple years ago.
> Was VERY ****ed.
>
> The set I have from HF actually fit pretty well. Plus with the rust and
> crud I have no qualms about driving a socket on as needed.
> If it breaks I just wander in and they replace it. When you consider
> that I can buy the complete set from HF for the price of the ratchet &
> the lack of high dollar logo also means they don't wander off.
>
>>
>>
>>> In 4 years I have managed to break one combination
>>> wrench and bent a ratchet. Both were replaced with no problem.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> The trend of "It's China made so
>>>>> it's junk" is not really true. I have seen tools made in the US
>>>>> that are
>>>>> worse junk than ones made in other countries.
>>>> that's true enough. i recently bought a taiwanese ratchet that i think
>>>> is superior to my "dual 80" snap-on of unknown origin. but that might
>>>> not be a fair comparison - snap-on seem to have really lost the plot.
>>>> quality is down, they're not prepared to fly the flag that justifies
>>>> the price, and they've been screwing their distributors - they've lost
>>>> franchisees all over the bay area.
>>>>
>>> Same here. The tool and storage guys are both gone from my area. Not
>>> from lack of spending on my part....
>>
>> going back to your 30 replacements, apparently snap-on have recently
>> started to insist franchisees replace breakages from their own stock
>> and wait for factory replacement when they can be bothered to get
>> around to it, thus costing franchisees a bunch of up-front money. with
>> pricing and margins being what they are, the franchisees just had to
>> quit - they were being starved.
>>
>>
>
> I know the one guy started telling folks that he wouldn't replace tools
> without the original receipt.
> Guess the company logo stamped into the tools wasn't enough!
> Warranty stuff is ALWAYS a PIA. With fuel costs and more people buying
> less the margins are getting thin.
>
> I was talking to a shop about 50 miles away this AM and he says that he
> has a great truck there. Told me to box up the busted stuff and bring it
> over and they will get it replaced till we get a truck back local. The
> big advantage to SO/Mac/Matco/Cornwell was always that the tools came to
> you.
>
> I wonder how they handle broken stuff online?

good question!


> I know they don't sell
> much of the diagnostics and such online, they refer you to a truck.

i generally buy online unless i need something urgently. no different
to "once every week or two" truck visits and a lot more convenient if
you want to comparison shop, which i think is important.


--
fact check required

On 12/20/2012 09:46 AM, Steve W. wrote:
> Bill Vanek wrote:
>> On Wed, 19 Dec 2012 22:40:04 -0600, "Gene" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> "Bill Vanek" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> On Wed, 19 Dec 2012 09:24:47 -0800, jim beam > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> that's true enough. i recently bought a taiwanese ratchet that i think
>>>>> is superior to my "dual 80" snap-on of unknown origin. but that might
>>>>> not be a fair comparison - snap-on seem to have really lost the plot.
>>>>> quality is down, they're not prepared to fly the flag that
>>>>> justifies the
>>>>> price, and they've been screwing their distributors - they've lost
>>>>> franchisees all over the bay area.
>>>> My understanding is that Snap On has been getting its tools from China
>>>> for several years now. I know guys still wrenching in dealerships that
>>>> switched to Harbor Freight because they're so cheap, who cares if they
>>>> break? And they know stuff breaks - they're not worried about getting
>>>> hurt. They're tools are good enough for most work.
>>> As you're likely well aware, it isn't just that they can or do break
>>> (and yes, workers can and do sometimes get injured as either
>>> a direct or indirect effect). The lack of precision tolerances on
>>> cheap tools can result in poor fits that damage fasteners heads
>>> rendering them difficult to remove even with the best of tools.
>>
>> There's no argument with that, but I'm in Las Vegas, where there's
>> rarely rusted fasteners, and dealer mechanics are usually working on
>> newer cars. You can get away with sloppy fits under those conditions.
>
>
> I LOVE new vehicles that haven't started rotting. Bolts and nuts that
> come free with just a pull.
> No rust/dirt/paint chips/ body filler falling out while your trying to
> get out the damn rust welded bolts.
>
> One of the reasons why I think they should rewrite the damn books with a
> set of specs for new/southern vehicles and
> one for northern rot prone locations. Especially areas that require
> multiple levels of part removal to get to the actual piece.
> That or use real world worst case numbers. Nothing like having a book
> time for exhaust manifold removal that is less than what it will take
> you to drill out the broken ones...

the dirty little secret is that salt is vastly over-used and pretty much
pointless if the correct tires are employed. but it sure as little
apples helps detroit.

kalifornistan not only has the benefits of little/no salt, but fabulous
old cars from the 50's, 60's and 70's in pretty much original condition.
although the detroit tentacles reach out on newer cars by way of
emissions regs that keep being moved. my 89 now has to pass 2006 smog
specs. that is utter b.s.


--
fact check required