Repair Fraud?

In article >,
Agave > wrote:

> I'd like to commend both Pete C. and aarcuda69062 for maintaining a
> long, informative, and very civil thread that otherwise could have
> erupted into a flame-war many times. This is what newsgroups are all about!

Very unlike me, 'eh?

I'm thinkin' that someone hijacked my account...;-)

wrote in article
>...
>
> Okay, How about a little test...
>
> Find a rear wheel bearing for a '72 Capri. I'll give you 2 days to
> come up with a part # and price...
>
>

I used to work on older (20-to-50-years-old) European and British cars for
a living.

We bought more axle, transmission, and differential bearings from our local
industrial bearing supplier than from all our automotive sources combined.

While the automotive market might generally consider anything more than
20-years-old to be "obsolete", bearing manufacturers still produce and
stock a lot of the stuff.

Drop your car off Monday morning so I can get the old bearing out and get
the number from it, and I'll probably not only have the part in two days,
but I'll return your car to you all back together in that time.

You WILL, of course, pay for my knowledge and expertise in repair and parts
acquisition.

Knowing HOW to fix something is good, but knowing WHERE to get the
necessary parts is, often, equally important.....and, I'm entitled to
charge for my "education".

Remember the guy who walked into a large company that was having problems
with one of their gigantic machines, made an "X" on it, told them to hit
the "X" with a 48 ounce ballpein hammer - which worked - then sent a bill
for $1,000.

When the accounting office insisted on an itemized bill, he wrote....

" Mark 'X' on machine....$1.00."

"Application of previous practice, study and experience resulting in
knowing the most efficient way of determining exactly WHERE to place 'X'
without total disassembly of machine resulting in downtime and lost
production...$999.00."

aarcuda69062 wrote:
>
> In article >,
> "Pete C." > wrote:
>
> > > Actually, I don't know what the car needs until it's up in the
> > > air and the wheels are off. Estimating and/or ordering parts by
> > > your method is borderline malpractice.
> >
> > That depends on what the customer is asking for. When I make an
> > appointment with a shop and give them a list of items I want done, I'm
> > not asking for their opinion or diagnosis, I'm giving them a specific
> > list of tasks to do. If I say replace pads and shoes all around, rear
> > axle seals and front rotors ('cause one is buggered from a stuck
> > caliper), that's what I expect to be done. It's different if I come in
> > and give you a list of symptoms and say find and fix the problem.
>
> But we're not talking about -you- specifically Pete, we're
> talking about shop management in general and how it relates to
> the typical motorist most of which don't have the time or
> inclination to ferret out what exactly needs to be done on their
> vehicle.

No, I'm far from typical.

>
> > > Huh?
> > > Where in any of these posts did I mention what my markup
> > > percentage is?
> >
> > I don't know what your markup is specifically, but it's been established
> > that the markup at many shops is far more than 20%.
>
> When I had my left knee replaced in 2001, do you honestly believe
> that the hospital charged me their cost for the joint?
> I guarantee you they marked it up in the hundreds of percent.
> The aspirin they gave me to reduce fever was marked up in the
> thousands of percent.

The hospitals have a bit different situation as unlike the typical auto
shop, hospitals have emergency rooms where they have to treat everyone
regardless of payment. They have to gouge everywhere they can to try to
compensate. Hospitals also have to upgrade equipment and tools more
frequently than an auto shop.

> If I replace a $5 PCV grommet to cure a lean trouble code, why
> shouldn't I sell it for double what I paid to make up for the
> phone time spent calling it in and the interruption time when it
> was delivered?

The $70/hr and perhaps 30 minute minimum don't cover that adequately?

>
> > > Except that you have no idea, evidence or proof of what my parts
> > > mark up is, thusly, your insinuation of deception is bogus to say
> > > the least.
> > > Try this Pete; reply to what I post, not what your emotions and
> > > prejudices tell you to.
> >
> > "Your" in this case is referring to a shop that is known to have a high
> > parts markup, the subject of this thread, not your specific shop.
> > Certainly not all shops are the same.
>
> The subject of this thread is "repair fraud." if the OP
> authorized the work to be done at the price he paid, there is/was
> no fraud. A sudden realization that it might have been done
> cheaper elsewhere is not ground to claim fraud, it is however
> grounds to claim stupid consumer. So now we need to add 'protect
> the customer from himself' to the job description?
> I don't think so.

Well clearly there isn't actual fraud, but there is a negative
perception by the customer which could likely have been avoided by
pricing the part closer to average retail and adjusting the labor/shop
rate appropriately.

>
> > > Since when do "costs" have anything to do with the ultimate price
> > > of a given product?
> >
> > Last I knew "costs" had a very large impact on the ultimate price.
>
> In one direction they do, in the other, they don't.
>
> > > Then they should go buy the $20 part and install it.
> > > It's their choice to see or ignore the value.
> >
> > It's certainly their choice. The problem is that this perception of a
> > rip-off is a large part of what fuels the overall public image of
> > mechanics as crooks.
>
> So, why does this perception only occur after the fact, and why
> is it the shops fault that the customer chose it in the sequence
> he did? At the very worst, the OP got a cheap education.

It's been my experience that most people have the perception that they
will be ripped off before they even walk into the shop. Certainly there
are exceptions and some people have found shops that they are quite
happy with.

I have had one good experience with a shop and it was an independent one
as well. I was some 1,700 miles from home when the fuel pump on my truck
died. Had I been home I would have tackled it myself, but away from my
shop and tools and with time constraints this wasn't an option.
Fortunately I had someone available to give me a ride from my stricken
truck to the local auto shop.

I talked to them and explained the situation and they were fortunately
able to fit me in that day. Since I had already done the troubleshooting
in the parking lot where my truck was stuck, they were able to start
chasing after a replacement pump while I stopped at the local hardware
store for some supplies and went back to the lot to siphon out as much
of the 34 gallons of gas as possible (yes the tank was full).

They stopped by with the tow truck an hour or so later and brought the
truck back to the shop. The net result is that they got the pump
replaced that day at a quite reasonable price (forget exactly),
particularly given the four guys they had wrestling with the tank and
the rusty hanger bolts.

>
> > > No, then they will compare my higher labor rate to the one down
> > > the street which is lower and accuse me of being a cheat, liar
> > > and rip-off, totally ignoring the denominator of me not marking
> > > up my parts.
> >
> > I've never heard of someone being called a cheat or liar for being more
> > expensive. Rip-off perhaps.
>
> The OP did business with someone who he thinks was more expensive
> than he liked and now believes that he was defrauded, how can the
> semantics of cheat, liar or rip-off not be used interchangeably.
>
> > > It's their warped perception, it's their problem.
> >
> > The public's perception of your business, or businesses of your type in
> > general *is* your problem. If the public at large perceives mechanics as
> > crooks your starting off bad to begin with regardless of how good your
> > work is.
>
> I don't know that the public -at large- perceives mechanics as
> crooks. I suspect that any disdain WRT the trade in general is
> more so fostered upon ignorance on the consumers part.

Ignorance is certainly a big part of it, but I believe there have been
some surveys that have indicated that it was a widely held perception.

> The public in general really has no idea of what is involved in
> repairing cars day in and day out. Ever hear the phrase "can't
> you just plug your computer into it and have it tell you what's
> wrong?"

Absolutely the general public has little knowledge of auto repair. Used
to be most people did oil changes themselves, now most people don't even
know how to check their oil much less change it.

> the average consumer thinks that my AC
> recovery/recycle/recharge machine is a computer that I merely
> need to plug into their can and it will tell me why their air
> conditioning doesn't work. They think a scan tool is a computer
> that we just plug in and it provides all the answers. The engine
> analyzer is the grand pooba, it does everything -and- then some.

Certainly doesn't provide all the answers, just provides far better
information on symptoms than the average customers description and of
course say essentially nothing about problems outside the engine.

>
> Like I said, their warped perceptions are their problem.
> I'd rather focus on the real issues that effect perceptions,
> things like greasy floors, poor grammar, orange rags hanging out
> of a pocket, lack of training, greasy steering wheels, etc.
> There are legitimate perceptions that might make one question
> whether they're dealing with a grease monkey versus a trained
> professional technician. Then there are illegitimate perceptions
> where one thinks they know better how to assign profits to cost
> centers than the person charged with keeping the business afloat,
> feeding his family and other such foolish non-essentials.

Certainly more that one factor that influences customer perceptions.
Again though it certainly appears that the negative customer perception
that started this thread could have been avoided.

>
> > > What I'm getting at is that he was giving me advice that would
> > > help me avoid litigation and thusly, a loss in income for
> > > himself, making your lawyer jabs irrelevant, misplaced and
> > > meaningless.
> >
> > Ok, I see what your getting at. However my point about lawyers
> > litigating anything they can make a profit on still stands.
>
> All true, it's just that your point really wasn't germane to the
> issue at hand.
>
> > > Nothing distorted about it, I provide service AND goods, since
> > > doing so requires an expenditure of time independent of each
> > > other, I'm entitled if I so choose to make a profit or at least
> > > an income on both. In addition, by virtue of good business
> > > sense, I'm obligated to stand behind not only the service but the
> > > goods also, and since the manufacturing process is not foolproof,
> > > the goods can and do fail during the time period that I agreed to
> > > stand behind that particular 'goods.'
> >
> > Good business sense also dictates that your prices for a particular
> > product should be in line with the area norms.
>
> BINGO! Now you got it!
>
> > In the case of auto parts
> > you're looking at installed vs. uninstalled costs when comparing to a
> > parts store.
>
> Apples and oranges.
>
> > If you look at any other example of installed vs.
> > uninstalled, the price of the item remains essentially the same and the
> > installation cost is separate. This applies to appliances, windows,
> > roofing, etc. Only in the auto repair industry is it the norm to
> > significantly markup the parts cost *and* also charge labor.
>
> No, not exclusive to the auto repair industry.
> I know for a fact that the company that refinished my deck last
> year marked up the stain and sealer. The company that resealed
> my concrete driveway marked up the sealer that they used.
> The company that repaved the road in front of my house in 2001
> marked up the sand and gravel, concrete, sewer covers and light
> poles that went into the project. The company that cleans and
> maintains my neighbors swimming pool marks up the chemicals that
> they use. Plumbers mark up pipe, fitting, faucets, toilets,
> drains, water heaters and building permits. Electricians are
> identical. Lawn care, same deal. Janitorial services, same
> thing.
> Maybe it all just means that the above providers are better at
> not letting their customers run their businesses than the
> companies who are in the home theater business.

Do they mark up the products they provide significantly above typical
retail cost while purchasing in bulk at wholesale cost? If the typical
retail cost on the deck sealer was $20/gal, they purchase it at $10/gal
and then they provided it at $60/gal I think you'd be a bit upset. If
they provide it at $20/gal, they're still making profit from it, but
they don't create the negative perception.

>
> >
> > > The supplier isn't going
> > > to reimburse me for the lost time involved in replacing that part
> > > and since I am of no use to the rest of my customers if I go out
> > > of business due to financial losses associated with working for
> > > free, the parts get marked up accordingly in an effort to stave
> > > off what would otherwise become a failed business.
> >
> > I never said you don't have to account for the warranty overhead, just
> > that it was misplaced applying it to the parts cost and that doing so
> > served to fuel the public perception of mechanics as crooks.
>
> If it's the part that's being warranted (either literally or
> figuratively) why wouldn't you assign the mark up to the part.

Because the part manufacturer is providing the warranty on the part, not
you. You are providing the warranty on the labor to replace the part
should it fail, the manufacturer will provide the replacement part. The
cost of the labor warranty should fall under the labor category, not the
part category.

> Do you honestly believe that the anticipated warranty costs on
> your truck when new weren't part of what GM marked the truck up
> to?

Certainly any company providing a warranty has done the analysis to
determine the expected costs and account for them in the pricing of the
part and the manufacturers of the parts you are installing are no
exception.

> If I hadn't marked up the R-134a left over from last year to the
> market prices prevalent this year, how would I have replaced the
> 30# jug this summer when it ran dry? I'd have been in the red
> considering that R-134a literally quadrupled overnight.

Operating capital? The budget that funds the inventory before sale?

>
> > > Actually, the PDA has a wireless card ;-)
> > > I can log on to i-ATN, order parts, check the weather, read
> > > e-mail, etc. makes me -very- efficient. Perhaps one day I'll
> > > install a news client in the PDA and post a "me go plop-plop" to
> > > alt.tasteless live
> >
> > I've got one too. Unfortunately trying to read a PDF service manual on
> > that small screen is difficult at best.
>
> heh-heh...
>
>
> > > I'll chug along with the zip drive until it gives up the ghost,
> > > I'd rather waste the money now on a new digital camera and an
> > > i-pod nano. But you're right about the thumb drives and CF/SD
> > > cards, that kind of storage space would have been unbelievable
> > > back when I got my first laptop in 93 (a Grid with 2 meg of ram
> > > and a 16meg hard drive IIRC)
> >
> > A digital camera is really handy for auto work too. Before pictures sure
> > help you reassemble things and it's also handy to be able to take a
> > picture of a part before you put it back on so you can drive to the
> > store to get a replacement for it. Digital cameras are also great for
> > home project like drain lines under a sink, a couple pics and then go to
> > the store for parts referring to the pics on the camera to figure out
> > what will fit and then just delete the pics when you're done.
>
> Yup, very handy. I snap pictures of failed components for
> customers, sometime I snap pictures to cover my ass, snap a
> picture of the VIN, much quicker than jotting it down on a
> notepad. Looking to get something nicer than the 1.3 Mp HP
> battery devouring thing I've got now. Pretty sure the new one
> will be a Canon, 4 or 5 MP

I got a Kodak 3.1 Mp that was on sale some time ago, largely because it
used SD cards like my iPaq. I've been remarkably happy with it's
performance.

>
> > I've also used a small video camera and an LCD monitor to remotely watch
> > an area while I was working on a repair. Even worse I've used a netcam
> > to watch my ribs and brisket on the smoker while I'm working in my
> > office at the other end of the house.
>
> That last one is pretty ingenious.
>
> > > Sounds like maybe your stuff is a little more critical than mine,
> > > I'd merely suffer an 8am awww **** and then dump it in the
> > > wife's hands to recreate from the hard copies because you know it
> > > won't happen until that ONE time you forget to back up at the end
> > > of the day... Yeah, it's old and slow, but so is the Ford
> > > tri-motor I'm going up in on Sunday. 8-)
> > > <snip old>
> >
> > Bank system and data are probably a bit more critical, but with the
> > fairly low cost of internal RAID controllers these days and their
> > availability for ATA type disks instead of just SCSI they are a good
> > investment for any business system.
> >
> > Backups should be an automatic scheduled process, not manual. Windows
> > includes a batch scheduling function these days so it's pretty easy to
> > implement.
>
> Ah, see, computers to you are what cars, trucks and on the odd
> occasion boats are to me. My computers are tools for the most
> part and although I enjoy the accomplishment of setting up my own
> wireless network and such, they are not a vocation.

I'm really a "certified jack of all trades" as there is not a lot that I
don't do. I've done audio and video production and engineering, stereo
and VCR service, CNC machine tool service, Printing, pre press and
bindery work, baking, welding, machining, construction / remodeling,
electrical, plumbing, HVAC...

I've got a few odd projects posted on me web site http://wpnet.us

>
> > > More often than not, the published aftermarket (customer pay)
> > > labor time is just the warranty time with an added percentage to
> > > account for age related issues. Customers will not accept not
> > > knowing what the labor bill is until the repair is completed so
> > > something HAS to come out of a standardized book in order to
> > > generate an estimate, it has long been industry practice to pay
> > > the mechanic for his labor according to that published time.
> > > Some time the times are ridiculously high, sometimes ridiculously
> > > low, the idea then is that at some point equilibrium is reached,
> > > the customer gets a fair value (no matter how the ticket is
> > > itemized) and (hopefully) the mechanic gets a decent take home.
> >
> > That equilibrium for the customer would only happen if they have a
> > number of repair transactions to that they actually see the average. If
> > they only come in for a few repairs and those happen to be the
> > overpriced ones, they get screwed. Of course if they happen to be the
> > underpriced repairs then they get a really good deal.
> >
> > >
> > > > I'm generally pretty
> > > > reasonable on such things and generally allow more than the standard
> > > > "book" time in my estimates. If they get it done in the book time I'm
> > > > pleasantly surprised.
> > >
> > > Referring to what you do for a living, not what a shop is quoting
> > > you?
> >
> > No, in my estimates of how long the repair should take. I have enough of
> > an idea of what is involved in the repair and what efficiencies are
> > gained from a real shop environment to judge whether the "book" time is
> > high or low.
>
> Ah, got it.
>
> > > That's the thing, the customer has no way of knowing if they are
> > > comparing like items, i.e., of same quality (we've been over this
> > > before). The other unknown is whether the parts house is low
> > > balling them because they for whatever reason prefer retail
> > > walk-in customers versus wholesale it's going out on their truck
> > > customers such as myself. This was a source of contention when
> > > NAPA corporate owned the store in my town and quite frankly, I
> > > have no way of knowing what they're quoting to walk-in customers
> > > under new ownership because I'm not a walk-in customer.
> >
> > I never said the customer perception was fully objective, just that I
> > feel that high markups on parts negatively impacts that perception.
>
> Out and out gouging, absolutely.
>
> > > When I see deceptive pricing, I see the sign outside Midas
> > > Muffler or Mieneke offering $39.95 per axle brake jobs, no one
> > > has ever gotten out the door for that price.
> >
> > Yea, and if they do, they aren't likely to be stopping at the next
> > traffic light either.
>
> It's the advertisement of the impossible/nonexistent that is out
> and out fraud.

I'm sure they did a $39.95 / axle brake job on a Yugo at some point at
one of their shops.

>
> > > Thing is, to get away from that which you disdain, all shops in a
> > > given area would have to agree to operate that way, and that
> > > isn't going to happen for various reasons, chief among them being
> > > that the federal government takes dim view of collusion on
> > > pricing in a given industry.
> >
> > Not true, one shop that does good work can influence the market around
> > them.
>
> Not in this industry. Too many customer only concern themselves
> with price, not quality and they wouldn't recognize value if
> their life depended on it.

The acceptance of mediocrity in exchange for low price is a problem in
most industries.

>
> > Granted they take a bit of a risk in doing so, but it is possible
> > to promote your new pricing structure and educate the public to some
> > extent.
>
> Ain't gonna happen. The public still thinks that there is a
> magic computer box that tells us everything that is wrong with
> their car.

Well, it would, if the auto manufacturers would put another $100 worth
of sensors in cars.

>
> > Of course one shop that does bad work can also influence the
> > market around them, which can be a problem.
>
> In a small market, yes, in a large market, probably not.
>
> > > These independent shops are no longer around because?
> > > Curious, which state is this?
> >
> > Connecticut. A combination of factors at work I think.
> >
> > Most of the independents were also gas stations and with the issues of
> > leaking underground tanks and the cost of removal replacement and
> > remediation, most of the independents were driven out of business. Only
> > the corporate owned stations could afford to essentially rebuild and
> > they don't do service.
>
> Largely because potato chips and soda pop are much more
> profitable than repair services.

More profitable and very low overhead.

>
> > Additionally the overall auto market of the state changed with the
> > influx of PYVs (Plastic Yuppie Vermin) invading the state from Boston
> > and NYC. This brought with it the 2yr car replacement which put most
> > repair work under warranty at the dealers.
>
> Love the PYV thing, almost made coffee come out of my nose.
> Situation sounds an awful lot like around here.
>
> > There are still some independent shops, but they are mostly in the
> > northwest corner and the east side of the state where it is still rural.
> > If you work in Hartford as I did, it would be inconvenient to get to
> > most independent shops.
>
> > The graphic types tend to be short on the mechanical skills just as the
> > mechanical types tend to be short on the graphic skills.
>
> Ya got that right!
>
> > > if he sees me drive by, he
> > > always calls me on my cell phone, so there I am trying to make
> > > the corner to go to NAPA juggling the phone while negotiating a
> > > corner right about the time I'm taking a swig of coffee in a 3/4
> > > ton truck. Oh well.
> >
> > On more than one occasion I've had to ask a passenger to please shut up
> > as I'm trying to maneuver the crew cab dually 1T through downtown
> > traffic. With the cell phone I just drop them in my lap and pickup when
> > I'm done with the maneuver.
>
> Can implanted cell phone be far off?

The Bluetooth headsets are pretty much that.

>
> > > Perhaps not but it was a lesson lost. (for them, not you)
> >
> > I'd hope the opportunity to inspect the damage and see how close it came
> > to setting the whole truck on fire would provide this lesson.
>
> A nice fat tow bill on them would have been a nice exclamation
> point though.

Yea, but it would also have inconvenienced me. Of course a flatbed
bringing in the charred remnants of my truck would sure have gotten
their attention.

>
> > > Yeah, I don't know what it is about doing a simple test drive.
> > > Seems some just can't be convinced that it's necessary.
> >
> > Not necessary if you just replaced an A/C compressor or similar item
> > that has little bearing on driving performance. A clutch replacement on
> > the other hand should be a no-brainer.
>
> But driving has an effect on AC performance, so, AC work always
> gets a test drive, especially with R-134a.

Certainly a good idea, but not quite as critical as for a new clutch.

>
> > > I know it well.
> >
> > So why the hell did they design it so you have to tear the entire hub
> > apart just to change the shoes? Good grief what a pain vs. the just pull
> > the drum type.
>
> Shoulda bought a Dodge?

To my knowledge Dodge did not produce a crew cab in '97. The Ford crew
cabs at the time had significantly shorter rear doors unlike the Chevy
where they are about the same size as the front doors.

> Hell, I'm still trying to understand why
> Ford thinks it's good that the intake manifold needs to come off
> to replace a camshaft position sensor on an Escort.

Serviceability certainly has been declining. I remember with my full
sized blazer I could sit inside the engine compartment to change the
plugs. I can't do that on the current truck.

> Just about
> ever other manufacturer manages to put it somewhat accessible.
> Good drive axle otherwise...

The limited slip that thinks it's a locker can be a bit harsh at times,
particularly on the U turns in some parking lots when there is sand on
the pavement.

>
> > > I thought maybe it might have been a dual mass flywheel or
> > > something.
> >
> > Don't think so, appears to be a run-of-the-mill if somewhat large
> > clutch, 13" I think.
> >
> > >
> > > > > Good grief!
> > > >
> > > > That's what I said before making sure there were no raised burrs and
> > > > then applying some red RTV to fill the buggered areas and hopefully
> > > > prevent leakage on the outside of the seal.
> > >
> > > Should work.
> >
> > Hope so, if not I'll have to either replace the hub or perhaps JB Weld
> > or TIG to rebuild the damaged areas and then refinish on the lathe. As I
> > side note, since I've found the red RTV it's all I use. Soooo much
> > better than the blue stuff.
>
> The one I like is a product called "The Right Stuff." Avoid the
> Cheeze Whiz can though, go for the caulking gun style.
> There are various Japanese and Euro OEM RTV gasket substitutes
> that are incredible as well, though they may be a little harder
> to find. MoPar RTVs are designed for specific fluids and are
> excellent but a bit pricey.

I don't go through enough for the larger packaging, so I just get the
small Permatex tubes.

>
> > > Sounds very much like the one I built about nine years ago, fits
> > > in between the seat bottom and the brake pedal, mine uses a
> > > scrounged gas station hoist control valve to apply and vent the
> > > air pressure from the cylinder, for the cylinder I used a $10
> > > mechanics suction gun. I regulate the inlet air down to 3 PSI or
> > > so... a little double sided velcro to keep the shoe from walking
> > > off the brake pedal. It wowed the hell out of a couple of the
> > > pocket protector types at Rockwell Automation (aka Allen-Bradley)
> > > Problem is, now everyone wants one.
> >
> > http://www.metalworking.com/DropBox/Robo-Foot1.jpg
> > http://www.metalworking.com/DropBox/Robo-Foot2.jpg
>
> Are these shots in the rec.crafts.metalworking dropbox?

Yep. They are appropriate for there too as I used a 1" end mill in my
Bridgeport 1J to machine the Unistrut bracket to fit the cylinder rod.

>
> > Quick and dirty, the only fab work required was to bore one Unistrut
> > bracket to pass the 1" dia piston rod. I didn't even use an air valve, I
> > just used the airline quick disconnects to pressurize and depressurize
> > the cylinder. Set the regulator to about 10 psi to provide about 50#
> > force.
>
> Yup, very similar to my concoction. I'd find the quick connect
> part for apply/vent to be a bit awkward or cumbersome.
> All I can say is; great minds think alike.

Not really that awkward, particularly at 10 PSI. If I had a suitable
valve on hand I would have used it.

>
> I'd e-mail you pix of mine if you're curious.

Sure, just remove the .DOH.

Pete C.

On Sat, 08 Oct 2005 02:41:58 GMT, aarcuda69062
> stopped wearing his colon as a hat and wrote:

>In article >,
> wrote:
>
>> Okay, How about a little test...
>>
>> Find a rear wheel bearing for a '72 Capri. I'll give you 2 days to
>> come up with a part # and price...
>>
>>
>> SteveL
>
>I'll get right on it as soon as I have a valid charge card number.
>(that's also when the clock starts)
>
>Thanks for making my point....

You just made my point, I've got $20.00 that says you can't get the
parts in two days... Or are you just FOS???

SteveL
Send me an address to send the cash to...
pakeha1.at.earthlink.net

"aarcuda69062" > wrote in message
...
> In article > ,
> > wrote:

> > I think most people would be more than willing to pay a reasonable
> > price for competent work. But define 'reasonable' and 'competent'.
>
> Reasonable; at an agreeable price where the customer feels
> comfortable with the value he's receiving.

****************
Absolutely right.

> Competent; (in this case) returned to functioning as new
> performance in a workmanship like manner with no added problems.

****************
Right on target. If not 'as new', as near to original performance as
possible.

> > A lot of times, especially at dealerships in the larger cities, they
don't
> > get either a reasonable price or competent work.
>
> Because they don't have to. The customer pool is very large.
> PT Barnum

****************
'Suckers', as Barnum referred to them, were fair game. The suckers have
pretty much proliferated, while the circuses are rare indeed nowadays.

In article >,
wrote:

> >Thanks for making my point....
>
> You just made my point,

I think not. You proved for me that parts procurement takes
time, sometimes more than one might expect.

>I've got $20.00 that says you can't get the
> parts in two days...

Your $20.00 wouldn't even buy 24 minutes of my time.


Or are you just FOS???

FOS lives over on highway 143.