What is Water For Gas?

We all know the problems these high prices cause for the average
driver but what can be done about it?
http://carwithwater.googlepages.com/..._water_for_gas

"What is water for gas?".. Well it is a scam, Virginia. And you are a part
of it.

i think its too expensive to separate the water into hydrogen and
oxygen. or am i wrong?

> wrote in message
...
>i think its too expensive to separate the water into hydrogen and
> oxygen. or am i wrong?

It is more expensive that pulling cheap oil out of the ground and using
fairly inexpensive
refining technology to turn it into powerful and easily distributed liquid
fuel.

Hydrogen presents some problems in storage and distribution. Those can
eventually
be solved.

Hydrogen is created from water by electrolysis, so every mol of hydrogen
requires a
predetermined equivalence of electric current in its production. It is not
cheap, like the
scalping of petroleum has traditionally been. In the future, if cheap
electricity can be
acquired, then the price of hydrogen will more or less be directly related.
Possible?
Yes...with hydroelectric power, wind, solar, and nuclear fusion or fission
reactors, it
might be. Today, you well know, electricity is not cheap. Most in the USA
is from
coal or petroleum fired power plants.

In article >,
> wrote:
>i think its too expensive to separate the water into hydrogen and
>oxygen. or am i wrong?

You get just as much energy burning the hydrogen as you put in during
the separation process. Which is to say, hydrogen isn't a power source
at all, it's a power storage and distribution medium.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

"Scott Dorsey" > wrote in message
...
> In article
> >,
> > wrote:
>>i think its too expensive to separate the water into hydrogen and
>>oxygen. or am i wrong?
>
> You get just as much energy burning the hydrogen as you put in during
> the separation process. Which is to say, hydrogen isn't a power source
> at all, it's a power storage and distribution medium.
> --scott

Basically, that is the story today. Now, if we ever perfect fusion
reactions
on a very small scale,we could fuel our car for life with a thimblefull of
hydrogen. Or we could make hydrogen from water using fusion energy
at a very reasonable price. Not likely to see this in our time, huh?

On Aug 30, 9:23*pm, wrote:
> i think its too expensive to separate the water into hydrogen and
> oxygen. or am i wrong?

Depends on whether you believe in the laws of thermodynamics :-)
Many people obviously do not.

On Aug 31, 8:45*am, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
> In article >,
>
> > wrote:
> >i think its too expensive to separate the water into hydrogen and
> >oxygen. or am i wrong?
>
> You get just as much energy burning the hydrogen as you put in during
> the separation process. *Which is to say, hydrogen isn't a power source
> at all, it's a power storage and distribution medium.
> --scott
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. *C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Only if you have absolutely 100% efficiency. Remember the law of
thermo that says "and you can't even break even!"

Don Stauffer in Minnesota wrote:
>
> On Aug 31, 8:45 am, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
> > In article >,
> >
> > > wrote:
> > >i think its too expensive to separate the water into hydrogen and
> > >oxygen. or am i wrong?
> >
> > You get just as much energy burning the hydrogen as you put in during
> > the separation process. Which is to say, hydrogen isn't a power source
> > at all, it's a power storage and distribution medium.
> > --scott
> > --
> > "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
>
> Only if you have absolutely 100% efficiency. Remember the law of
> thermo that says "and you can't even break even!"

But that is a completely irrelavent answer to the original question that was
asked.

It has been shown that you can take natural gas and convert (reform) that gas
to hydrogen and then generate electricity from hydrogen and you will get 30%
more electricity than you would by just generating from natural gas. This is
proven technology with plants in operation.
Sure the conversion to hydrogen loses some energy but you have to be blind to
focus on that and ignore the gains in efficiency in the rest of the process.
However, that still leaves the question which was asked can it be cost
effective for powering cars? Hydrogen fuel cell cars are extremely efficient but
they are also very expensive.
Making Hydrogen with electrolysis has energy losses (duh). However burning
gasoline in a IC engine has a lot more energy losses. Hydrogen Fuel cell powered
cars are supposed to have efficiencies that are more than double that of
gasoline powered car. So it is possible to use the petroleum to produce
electricity and use the electricity to produce hydrogen and power a car with the
hydrogen and not only "break even' but come out ahead (in terms of total energy
used).
But that doesn't answer the question - Is it expensive? The answer is yes it is
very expensive.

-jim


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"Don Stauffer in Minnesota" > wrote in message
...
On Aug 30, 9:23 pm, wrote:
> i think its too expensive to separate the water into hydrogen and
> oxygen. or am i wrong?

Depends on whether you believe in the laws of thermodynamics :-)
Many people obviously do not.

Laws of thermodynamics are not in question. Economics issues are.

What is expensive? Many items will have to be taken into the loop
before "expensive" can be succintly defined for future fuel needs, I think.

With petroleum, our definition of "expensive" has never really taken on
many factors except immediate local price to purchase.

There was almost no expense in generating that petroleum because Mama
Nature did it for us.

If we now have to generate fuels because petroleum is too damaging
to the environment, too rare, too valuable to burn, etc, then expense takes
on other dimensions.

You CAN create fuels, but you cannot avoid the thermodynamics.

I think I know what I am trying to convey, but am not sure I did a very
good job in conveying it.