Dirty power steering fluid: This a scam?

On 10/11/2010 05:22 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:
> On 10/11/2010 03:39 PM, jim beam wrote:
>> On 10/10/2010 11:35 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
>>> On 10/10/2010 02:30 PM, jim beam wrote:
>>>> On 10/10/2010 11:23 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
>>>>> On 10/10/2010 01:35 PM, jim beam wrote:
>>>>>> On 10/10/2010 10:15 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
>>>>>>> On 10/10/2010 01:13 PM, jim beam wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 10/10/2010 09:12 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>>>>>>>>> jim > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> If you have been following the extreme service schedule in the
>>>>>>>>>>> owner's
>>>>>>>>>>> manual, you have changed it at least twice already.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> there is typically no manufacturer schedule specified or need to
>>>>>>>>>> change
>>>>>>>>>> power steering fluid. it doesn't get contaminated by combustion
>>>>>>>>>> product, friction material product, is not hygroscopic and
>>>>>>>>>> doesn't
>>>>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>>>> overheated.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It's on the schedule on my old BMW and it was on the schedule
>>>>>>>>> of my
>>>>>>>>> old
>>>>>>>>> Chrysler too. Not the regular one, but the extreme service one.
>>>>>>>>> Always
>>>>>>>>> follow the extreme service one.
>>>>>>>>> --scott
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> how old is "old"? has nothing changed?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm not aware of any significant changes that would get rid of the
>>>>>>> necessity to periodically replace fluids (really doesn't matter
>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>> one we're talking about) for maximum vehicle life.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There is no such thing as a "lifetime" fluid, no matter what the
>>>>>>> manual
>>>>>>> says. Unless you consider "lifetime" to be 10 years or less.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> nate
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> based on what dude? do you have hard data?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> i hear that line all the time from people talking about engine oil
>>>>>> [the
>>>>>> more you change it the better!!!], but they're always the ones who
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> stuck in the 50's, superstitious, have never done any form of
>>>>>> analysis -
>>>>>> either engine oil, or used parts - and have no data to back up their
>>>>>> claims. they probably still believe in santa claus too.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/4291579733/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> if anyone believes in santa, it should be the oil companies that
>>>>>> spend
>>>>>> millions on research creating better products, then have consumers
>>>>>> ignore all their hard work and pay more to change their oil just as
>>>>>> frequently as they did before!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not saying that everything needs to be changed at 3K mile
>>>>> intervals.
>>>>> I *am* saying that if you are like me and want your vehicles to last
>>>>> several hundred thousand miles, there is no automotive fluid that has
>>>>> been proven to my satisfaction
>>>>
>>>> determined how?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> to outlive the fundamental mechanical
>>>>> parts of the car, when properly maintained. therefore, the small added
>>>>> cost of changing some of the not-often-changed fluids every 50 or 100K
>>>>> miles is negligible when weighed against the possible costs of a
>>>>> premature failure.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, I flush my brake fluid every two years as well, and *do*
>>>>> otherwise
>>>>> follow the "severe service" schedule for my personal vehicles.
>>>>>
>>>>> nate
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> well, there /is/ a reason to flush brake fluid, hygroscopy, and that's
>>>> why it's in the service manual. but there's not much of a reason to
>>>> change power steering fluid [see above], which is why it's not.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Actually many new car manuals treat brake fluid as a "lifetime" fluid.
>>
>> unless you can enlighten me otherwise, the only one i'm aware of is
>> frod. and given frod's history of utter ruthlessness when it comes to
>> economics vs. engineering and driver safety, that's entirely
>> unsurprising.
>
> And GM. Not sure about Chrysler, haven't had one.

ok, i've done some homework for you.
http://www.aa1car.com/library/procut02.htm

indeed, our responsible and technically competent domestics do not
recommend brake fluid changes. they do however support fluid condition
testing, which is actually ok and amounts to pretty much the same thing.
[engine oil change intervals, in the absence of analysis and testing,
is based ona schedule. if you have hard data from testing and analysis,
you can throw that schedule out of the window.


>
>>
>>> but I still change it anwyay because I understand the reasons why it
>>> should be changed.
>>>
>>> The same is true for ATF and power steering fluid, for reasons that I've
>>> already explained.
>>
>> atf runs hot, oxidizes and gets contaminated - for reasons /i've/
>> already explained. power steering fluid doesn't, or at least not to
>> anywhere near the same order of magnitude. just because the two systems
>> [on some cars] use the same fluid doesn't mean their operating
>> environments are comparable or that their service requirements are the
>> same.
>
> Right, but some mfgrs. are listing ATF as a "lifetime" fluid now,

some have been doing that for about 20 years.


> and
> even if the manual says that, I take it with a grain of salt. And PS
> fluid *can* get wear particulates in it, and it can overheat if a
> vehicle is driven "assertively." Also I believe I've already related one
> anecdote where a vehicle that I had personal experience with had "dead"
> PS come back to life after a simple fluid flush.

but yet again nate, it's not subject to /constant/ heating, or
/constant/ increases in wear product burden because it's not in a torque
converter, getting filled with clutch pack wear material, or combustion
product. lifetime on power steering fluid may not be infinite, but it's
easily up there with other sealed, low thermal load, low particulate
applications and we're looking at 10,000+ hours usage without change.
do the math on converting that to mileage, and you'll see why i'm saying
that without any hard data to the contrary, you're just voicing
superstition.


>
> No skin off my nose if you don't change it, but to say that it's stupid
> to do so is a bit of an exaggeration and not always true.

don't put words in my mouth nate - i never used the ones you just
attributed to me. read again back through the thread.


>
>>
>>>
>>> The manual for my pickup truck I'm pretty sure recommends that the rear
>>> axle gear oil be changed every 50K but only on the "severe service"
>>> schedule. Obviously it's been changed, even though I don't figure that
>>> my service is unusually severe.
>>
>> differentials, particularly if they're limited slip, are heavily loaded
>> and quickly fill with wear product. changing the oil makes sense if the
>> manufacturer hasn't taken any steps to control contaminant circulation,
>> and i'm not aware of anyone that has.
>
> True. yet again showing that what a mfgr. may list as a "lifetime" fluid
> may still need to be changed periodically if one is shooting for really
> high mileage out of one's vehicle.

but changing fluids based on superstition, i.e. one where you have
absolutely zero evidence to support some kind of schedule the
manufacturer does not state, and one for which you have no alternative
reliable authoritative sources information, makes no sense.


>
>>>
>>> nate
>>>
>>> (in an ideal world, my car would have neither an automatic transmission
>>> nor power steering, but this is not an ideal world.)
>>
>> wow - that explains a lot!
>
> such as... I don't feel that I need 'em, and don't like extraneous stuff
> that adds weight and requires maintenance?
>
> nate
>
>


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

Tell your repair shop I have 323,000 miles and 20 years on my PS Fluid
in my Bonneville and there are no noises or steering issues..

harryface
91 Bonneville 322,655
05 Park Avenue 101,699