Radial Ride Rough on 71 AMC Matador

On Mon, 30 Dec 2013 22:22:40 -0800, Bill Vanek wrote:

> On Tue, 31 Dec 2013 06:07:04 +0000 (UTC), sctvguy1
> > wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 31 Dec 2013 00:03:59 -0600, T0m $herman wrote:
>>
>>> On 12/30/2013 11:48 PM, Bill Vanek wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 31 Dec 2013 05:38:37 +0000 (UTC), sctvguy1
>>
>>> New shocks - sure that the correct ones were put on? In general,
>>> shocks will have more effect on ride quality than tires of differing
>>> sidewall stiffness (assuming the same sidewall height and aspect
>>> ratio)?
>>>
>>> Other potential culprit as Bill Vanek suggests is excessive stiction
>>> due to improper re-assembly of the front suspension.
>>>
>>> Eliminate these two before spending money on different tires.
>>
>>All parts were stock parts, put on my a very good performance guy, who
>>even put back on the quiet factory mufflers, taking off the glasspacks.
>>Moog suspension parts were used. Factory springs, nylon bushings
>>instead of rubber, etc.
>
> That - the nylon - could be the problem right there. It would be even
> worse if they tightened the control arms while the suspension was
> hanging off of a frame rack, instead of doing it on a drive up type of
> rack. If they did, you not only have nylon instead of rubber, but now
> *all* of the control arm bushings are loaded during normal driving.

He did it on a drive up rack. He is a very thorough mechanic who
restores old cars and also adds performance parts to muscle cars.

sctvguy1 > wrote in :

> On Mon, 30 Dec 2013 22:22:40 -0800, Bill Vanek wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 31 Dec 2013 06:07:04 +0000 (UTC), sctvguy1
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 31 Dec 2013 00:03:59 -0600, T0m $herman wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 12/30/2013 11:48 PM, Bill Vanek wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 31 Dec 2013 05:38:37 +0000 (UTC), sctvguy1
>>>
>>>> New shocks - sure that the correct ones were put on? In general,
>>>> shocks will have more effect on ride quality than tires of differing
>>>> sidewall stiffness (assuming the same sidewall height and aspect
>>>> ratio)?
>>>>
>>>> Other potential culprit as Bill Vanek suggests is excessive stiction
>>>> due to improper re-assembly of the front suspension.
>>>>
>>>> Eliminate these two before spending money on different tires.
>>>
>>>All parts were stock parts, put on my a very good performance guy, who
>>>even put back on the quiet factory mufflers, taking off the
glasspacks.
>>>Moog suspension parts were used. Factory springs, nylon bushings
>>>instead of rubber, etc.
>>
>> That - the nylon - could be the problem right there. It would be even
>> worse if they tightened the control arms while the suspension was
>> hanging off of a frame rack, instead of doing it on a drive up type of
>> rack. If they did, you not only have nylon instead of rubber, but now
>> *all* of the control arm bushings are loaded during normal driving.
>
> He did it on a drive up rack. He is a very thorough mechanic who
> restores old cars and also adds performance parts to muscle cars.
>

yep the nylon bushings can make it very harsh, why did you put them on
instead of stock rubber??? they are a performance and handeling upgrade.
KB

On Tue, 31 Dec 2013 20:05:15 +0000, Kevin Bottorff wrote:

<snip>
> yep the nylon bushings can make it very harsh, why did you put them on
> instead of stock rubber??? they are a performance and handeling upgrade.
> KB

Well, I guess from all the replies,it is the bushings. Dan is used to
doing performance cars/upgrades, so he probably got the best bushings he
could get, performance wise, and "upgraded" the suspension for handling
and not ride comfort. Even though this car is not a "Mark Donohue"
flying brick, it does handle great, it just rides like a buckboard. I am
going to sell it and get something that rides more smoothly.

sctvguy1 > wrote:
>He did it on a drive up rack. He is a very thorough mechanic who
>restores old cars and also adds performance parts to muscle cars.

I agree that the nylon bushings are apt to be a lot of the issue, but
by the same token I bet they improve the steering feel as well.
And the tires may not be blameless either, it is probably a combination
of factors.

The Matador... and other AMC cars of that era... are not exactly known
for gentle rides and tight handling. You are probably getting closer to
the original handling qualities of the vehicle.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On Tue, 31 Dec 2013 15:58:06 -0500, Scott Dorsey wrote:

> sctvguy1 > wrote:
>>He did it on a drive up rack. He is a very thorough mechanic who
>>restores old cars and also adds performance parts to muscle cars.
>
> I agree that the nylon bushings are apt to be a lot of the issue, but by
> the same token I bet they improve the steering feel as well.
> And the tires may not be blameless either, it is probably a combination
> of factors.
>
> The Matador... and other AMC cars of that era... are not exactly known
> for gentle rides and tight handling. You are probably getting closer to
> the original handling qualities of the vehicle.
> --scott

God help me if that is so! This thing rides like a Mack truck. I
remember driving a 75/76 Matador at an AMC dealer, and it rode a lot
smoother. I think that having the "Go" package on this car has a lot to
do with it. I also think that the radials are making it ride hard as a
cob. The steering feel is just as numb as the "full-time" power steering
of all the old Chrysler products. I have to keep my eye on the road
constantly or this thing wanders off, I can't even feel the tires on the
road.

On 12/31/2013 11:16 AM, sctvguy1 wrote:
>
> God help me if that is so! This thing rides like a Mack truck. I
> remember driving a 75/76 Matador at an AMC dealer, and it rode a lot
> smoother. I think that having the "Go" package on this car has a lot to
> do with it. I also think that the radials are making it ride hard as a
> cob. The steering feel is just as numb as the "full-time" power steering
> of all the old Chrysler products. I have to keep my eye on the road
> constantly or this thing wanders off, I can't even feel the tires on the
> road.
>

That's the price you pay for driving this old car. You're pretty much
stuck with the ride. Your new suspension is doing what it's supposed to
do. Adding bias ply tires will probably cause your dentures to fly out
of your mouth like bats out of a cave in the evening. I suspect that
your vintage is too old for a car of this vintage.

On Tue, 31 Dec 2013 11:42:28 -1000, dsi1 wrote:

> On 12/31/2013 11:16 AM, sctvguy1 wrote:
>>
>> God help me if that is so! This thing rides like a Mack truck. I
>> remember driving a 75/76 Matador at an AMC dealer, and it rode a lot
>> smoother. I think that having the "Go" package on this car has a lot
>> to do with it. I also think that the radials are making it ride hard
>> as a cob. The steering feel is just as numb as the "full-time" power
>> steering of all the old Chrysler products. I have to keep my eye on
>> the road constantly or this thing wanders off, I can't even feel the
>> tires on the road.
>>
>>
> That's the price you pay for driving this old car. You're pretty much
> stuck with the ride. Your new suspension is doing what it's supposed to
> do. Adding bias ply tires will probably cause your dentures to fly out
> of your mouth like bats out of a cave in the evening. I suspect that
> your vintage is too old for a car of this vintage.

Hell, I'm only 61! I bought a brand new Hornet in 1974, and it rode a lot
better than this Matador. BTW, I don't have dentures, yet!

On 12/31/2013 11:48 AM, sctvguy1 wrote:
>
> Hell, I'm only 61! I bought a brand new Hornet in 1974, and it rode a lot
> better than this Matador. BTW, I don't have dentures, yet!
>

I used to have a Ford Capri in the 70s that had a ride that was "a
little" non-compliant. It felt like all four tires were off the road
when the going got rough. It would bounce a little sideways. I dug the
handling and tolerated the ride. At least it didn't have the numb-nuts
steering of the American cars. These cars had a faulty trunk seal that
would cause exhaust gases to get sucked into the interior. My eyes would
be actually watering sometimes because it was burning a little oil. Boy
those days were a gas - literally!

On Tue, 31 Dec 2013 12:45:14 -1000, dsi1 wrote:

> On 12/31/2013 11:48 AM, sctvguy1 wrote:
>>
>> Hell, I'm only 61! I bought a brand new Hornet in 1974, and it rode a
>> lot better than this Matador. BTW, I don't have dentures, yet!
>>
>>
> I used to have a Ford Capri in the 70s that had a ride that was "a
> little" non-compliant. It felt like all four tires were off the road
> when the going got rough. It would bounce a little sideways. I dug the
> handling and tolerated the ride. At least it didn't have the numb-nuts
> steering of the American cars. These cars had a faulty trunk seal that
> would cause exhaust gases to get sucked into the interior. My eyes would
> be actually watering sometimes because it was burning a little oil. Boy
> those days were a gas - literally!

Wasn't that particular car made in Germany and imported here? It was a
cute little car. Better than that Opel that looked like a shrunken
Corvette!

sctvguy1 > wrote:
>God help me if that is so! This thing rides like a Mack truck. I
>remember driving a 75/76 Matador at an AMC dealer, and it rode a lot
>smoother. I think that having the "Go" package on this car has a lot to
>do with it. I also think that the radials are making it ride hard as a
>cob. The steering feel is just as numb as the "full-time" power steering
>of all the old Chrysler products. I have to keep my eye on the road
>constantly or this thing wanders off, I can't even feel the tires on the
>road.

And this, in short, is why the Japanese car industry totally clobbered us.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."