Unwanted Complexity

dsi1 > wrote:
>
>Hybrids seem to be the worst option of all if you value simplicity.
>Maybe you could have an steam powered heater installed too. :-)

Not really. The hybrid DOES have an electric system and a gasoline system,
but both can be built pretty stripped down. It's a little gas engine that
runs at constant RPM. It's a little battery. It's a charge controller.

The problem is that manufacturers go out of their way to overcomplicate things.
And they also want to make them cheap, and you make things cheap by making
one device do multiple tasks. And that makes things ugly.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 6/7/2011 2:36 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> > wrote:
>>
>> Hybrids seem to be the worst option of all if you value simplicity.
>> Maybe you could have an steam powered heater installed too. :-)
>
> Not really. The hybrid DOES have an electric system and a gasoline system,
> but both can be built pretty stripped down. It's a little gas engine that
> runs at constant RPM. It's a little battery. It's a charge controller.

You can simplify a hybrid by using the gas engine to only generate
electricity and not drive the wheels. However, most hybrids are not
built this way. The simplest car possible would probably be an electric
one with a single motor directly connected to a differential driving the
rear wheels.

>
> The problem is that manufacturers go out of their way to overcomplicate things.
> And they also want to make them cheap, and you make things cheap by making
> one device do multiple tasks. And that makes things ugly.
> --scott

On Jun 7, 1:06Â*pm, dsi1 > wrote:
> On Jun 5, 9:50Â*pm, AD > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jun 3, 1:20Â*pm, dsi1 > wrote:
>
> > > On 6/1/2011 3:15 AM, AD wrote:
>
> > > > On May 31, 2:26 pm, > Â*wrote:
> > > >> On 5/28/2011 12:38 PM, Vic Smith wrote:
>
> > > >>> I'm doing the lower intake gasket on my '97 Lumina.
> > > >>> 160k miles, and hasn't failed, but since they are known to fail, I'm
> > > >>> not taking any chances since I decided to keep it a couple more years,
> > > >>> and do the annual Florida trip again. Â*That's about 3K miles total..
>
> > > >> You're in luck. When the electric car takes over, complexity will drop
> > > >> way down. No need to replace the intake gasket cause there won't be any
> > > >> intake. Unfortunately, there will still probably be a lot of air-bags
> > > >> and my guess is that we won't be using keys to start cars anymore.
>
> > > > I knew a guy who parked his 600 V12 series near a TV station and did
> > > > not bother to
> > > > bring the physical key. Well, TV overpowered his remote entry fob.
>
> > > > I vote for simpler low tech solutions any day.
>
> > > I agree with this. My point was that a car with 2 electric motors,
> > > controller, and batteries would be dead simple compared to a car with a
> > > conventional internal combustion drivetrain and all those things needed
> > > to keep the piston engine happy. Dead simple is always good. OTOH, a
> > > dead simple car security system might be taking things too far. :-)
>
> > Electric car would not be effective at freeway speeds.
> > Hence you do need conventional transmission, though 2 or 3 speeds
> > might
> > be sufficient. That and electic motor to feed the rear wheels.
>
> > And then you need two electric motors in front wheels
> > to have a 3 wheel drive setup in snowbelt.
>
> > Then you could step further to do active vectoring on the rear axle
> > the way acura (and now nissan juke) does it.
>
> > all of a sudden a lot of the complexity of the piston engine is back
> > in.
>
> > My preference is for a conventional classic (rwd) setup
> > with the two electrical motors for the front wheels for low speed
> > unstuck assist.
>
> Hybrids seem to be the worst option of all if you value simplicity.
> Maybe you could have an steam powered heater installed too. :-)

Ok, so you can have one electric motor powering just the left or right
wheel
to reduce complexity :-)
Left one has an advantage of more likely being on the part of pavement
with some traction.
Right one has an advantage to help in equal left/right weight
distribution
assuming the driver is always heavier than the passenger oк having
a typical scenario of absent passenger in mind.

really I need some power to the front just to get unstuck: no
need for an oversized battery of a hybrid. Just a rear wheel driver
which the "unstuck" enhancement: an electric motor front wheel assist
seems
like the simplest if not the cheapest way to accomplish this.

Besides, if you'd like it could be used instead of the alternator,
thus, hopefully
introducing no new parts, just relocating an existing one into a
wheel.

Do alternators have clutches like starters to disengage them when not
needed to prevent
battery overcharging or that is handled differently?

On 06/08/2011 06:07 AM, AD wrote:
> On Jun 7, 1:06 pm, > wrote:
>> On Jun 5, 9:50 pm, > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Jun 3, 1:20 pm, > wrote:
>>
>>>> On 6/1/2011 3:15 AM, AD wrote:
>>
>>>>> On May 31, 2:26 pm, > wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/28/2011 12:38 PM, Vic Smith wrote:
>>
>>>>>>> I'm doing the lower intake gasket on my '97 Lumina.
>>>>>>> 160k miles, and hasn't failed, but since they are known to fail, I'm
>>>>>>> not taking any chances since I decided to keep it a couple more years,
>>>>>>> and do the annual Florida trip again. That's about 3K miles total..
>>
>>>>>> You're in luck. When the electric car takes over, complexity will drop
>>>>>> way down. No need to replace the intake gasket cause there won't be any
>>>>>> intake. Unfortunately, there will still probably be a lot of air-bags
>>>>>> and my guess is that we won't be using keys to start cars anymore.
>>
>>>>> I knew a guy who parked his 600 V12 series near a TV station and did
>>>>> not bother to
>>>>> bring the physical key. Well, TV overpowered his remote entry fob.
>>
>>>>> I vote for simpler low tech solutions any day.
>>
>>>> I agree with this. My point was that a car with 2 electric motors,
>>>> controller, and batteries would be dead simple compared to a car with a
>>>> conventional internal combustion drivetrain and all those things needed
>>>> to keep the piston engine happy. Dead simple is always good. OTOH, a
>>>> dead simple car security system might be taking things too far. :-)
>>
>>> Electric car would not be effective at freeway speeds.
>>> Hence you do need conventional transmission, though 2 or 3 speeds
>>> might
>>> be sufficient. That and electic motor to feed the rear wheels.
>>
>>> And then you need two electric motors in front wheels
>>> to have a 3 wheel drive setup in snowbelt.
>>
>>> Then you could step further to do active vectoring on the rear axle
>>> the way acura (and now nissan juke) does it.
>>
>>> all of a sudden a lot of the complexity of the piston engine is back
>>> in.
>>
>>> My preference is for a conventional classic (rwd) setup
>>> with the two electrical motors for the front wheels for low speed
>>> unstuck assist.
>>
>> Hybrids seem to be the worst option of all if you value simplicity.
>> Maybe you could have an steam powered heater installed too. :-)
>
> Ok, so you can have one electric motor powering just the left or right
> wheel
> to reduce complexity :-)
> Left one has an advantage of more likely being on the part of pavement
> with some traction.
> Right one has an advantage to help in equal left/right weight
> distribution
> assuming the driver is always heavier than the passenger oк having
> a typical scenario of absent passenger in mind.
>
> really I need some power to the front just to get unstuck: no
> need for an oversized battery of a hybrid. Just a rear wheel driver
> which the "unstuck" enhancement: an electric motor front wheel assist
> seems
> like the simplest if not the cheapest way to accomplish this.
>
> Besides, if you'd like it could be used instead of the alternator,
> thus, hopefully
> introducing no new parts, just relocating an existing one into a
> wheel.
>
> Do alternators have clutches like starters to disengage them when not
> needed to prevent
> battery overcharging or that is handled differently?

The regulator takes care of that by varying the field voltage. It takes
next to no power to turn an alternator with no voltage on the field, so
no clutch is needed.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On Jun 6, 5:57*pm, wrote:
> Street Legal electric Golf Carts,,, Yeah, that's the Ticket.(not really
> though)
>
> A couple of years ago I saw somewhere on the web about a company
> building street legal Golf Carts.
> cuhulin

Hmm, as I believe I said I want the gasoline engine to drive rear
wheels directly.
If occasional power delivery to the front with electric motors
makes a car a golf cart I'm puzzled by your comment.

This is an auxiliary "get unstuck in snow/mud" device I'm proposing
not the primary means to propel the car. The rear axle must be powered
at all times.

On 6/8/2011 12:07 AM, AD wrote:

> Ok, so you can have one electric motor powering just the left or right
> wheel
> to reduce complexity :-)

That sure would be simple but I was thinking that you'd need a
differential to split the power to two wheels. It might be simpler and
lighter to use 2 motors instead.

> Left one has an advantage of more likely being on the part of pavement
> with some traction.
> Right one has an advantage to help in equal left/right weight
> distribution
> assuming the driver is always heavier than the passenger oк having
> a typical scenario of absent passenger in mind.
>
> really I need some power to the front just to get unstuck: no
> need for an oversized battery of a hybrid. Just a rear wheel driver
> which the "unstuck" enhancement: an electric motor front wheel assist
> seems
> like the simplest if not the cheapest way to accomplish this.

4 small electric motors at each wheel? It might be the simplest solution.

>
> Besides, if you'd like it could be used instead of the alternator,
> thus, hopefully
> introducing no new parts, just relocating an existing one into a
> wheel.
>
> Do alternators have clutches like starters to disengage them when not
> needed to prevent
> battery overcharging or that is handled differently?

No clutch on the alternators. My guess is that the load from an
alternator never gets that high. You can hear when the alternator is
charging the battery sometimes. Usually it's just after you've started
the engine.

Oddly enough you don't need clutches on electric motors either. The full
torque is available from a dead stop. That's my understanding, but I
could be wrong.

dsi1 > wrote:
>On 6/7/2011 2:36 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>> > wrote:
>>>
>>> Hybrids seem to be the worst option of all if you value simplicity.
>>> Maybe you could have an steam powered heater installed too. :-)
>>
>> Not really. The hybrid DOES have an electric system and a gasoline system,
>> but both can be built pretty stripped down. It's a little gas engine that
>> runs at constant RPM. It's a little battery. It's a charge controller.
>
>You can simplify a hybrid by using the gas engine to only generate
>electricity and not drive the wheels. However, most hybrids are not
>built this way. The simplest car possible would probably be an electric
>one with a single motor directly connected to a differential driving the
>rear wheels.

Right. Or two pancake motors driving the rear wheels, doing away completely
with the mechanical differential. You could even have positraction in
software and some degree of steering control by differentially driving the
pair. Fewer actual things to go wrong that way.

Reducing the number of moving parts is always a win to my mind. Of course,
I don't work for GM....
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On Jun 8, 1:13*am, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
> dsi1 > wrote:
> >On 6/7/2011 2:36 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> >> > *wrote:
>
> >>> Hybrids seem to be the worst option of all if you value simplicity.
> >>> Maybe you could have an steam powered heater installed too. :-)
>
> >> Not really. *The hybrid DOES have an electric system and a gasoline system,
> >> but both can be built pretty stripped down. *It's a little gas engine that
> >> runs at constant RPM. *It's a little battery. *It's a charge controller.
>
> >You can simplify a hybrid by using the gas engine to only generate
> >electricity and not drive the wheels. However, most hybrids are not
> >built this way. The simplest car possible would probably be an electric
> >one with a single motor directly connected to a differential driving the
> >rear wheels.
>
> Right. *Or two pancake motors driving the rear wheels, doing away completely
> with the mechanical differential. *You could even have positraction in
> software and some degree of steering control by differentially driving the
> pair. *Fewer actual things to go wrong that way.
>
> Reducing the number of moving parts is always a win to my mind. *Of course,
> I don't work for GM....
> --scott
>
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

The electric car will greatly simplify making a car because the drive
train will be modular, and driven by software. You could use the same
set ups for sports cars, muscle cars and family cars. Just change the
software. Maybe they'll bolt on a high wattage motor or 2 additional
motors for expensive cars but my guess is that the controller would be
pretty much the same unit for a broad range of cars.

One electric motor with the shaft that extends out on both sides of the
motor.One of the shafts connected to a jack shaft.No differential
needed.According to an article I once saw in Popular Science magazine
back in the 1960s.
cuhulin

On Jun 10, 2:19*pm, wrote:
> One electric motor with the shaft that extends out on both sides of the
> motor.One of the shafts connected to a jack shaft.No differential
> needed.According to an article I once saw in Popular Science magazine
> back in the 1960s.
> cuhulin

Sounds like something out of the 1860s. What happens if you need to do
a turn?