Need your advice on a good inside automotive tire patch

On Sun, 13 Dec 2015 21:05:30 -0800, The Real Bev
> wrote:


>> For example, almost *never* when I look at car tires in the Costco
>> parking lot with brand new tires, is the dot in the correct place.
>
>Dot? Explain...
>

They are basically marks on tires which are supposed to indicate
"balance points." A red dot represents radial runout, a yellow dot
represents the "light" spot of the tire.
You're supposed to mount the tire with the dots aligned with the wheel
stem hole, or the "low spot" dimple - if present - on a steel wheel.
If you have both red and yellow dots, ignore the yellow.
This might give you a chance of finding the best initial balance point
- if you're lucky. Depends of how accurately the wheel and tire were
manufactured and tested in terms of "balance" and runout.
But if you balance tires with a Hunter Road Force balancer, which is
how I get my tires balanced, the dots end up at random locations.
If I was bubble-balancing my own tires, I'd use them.
My kid worked mounting tires at Just Tires for a couple years and when
I mentioned the dots to him he responded with, "Oh yeah, I noticed the
dots sometimes. Didn't know what they were for. Interesting"
And some tire manufacturers don't mark their tires with balance
points.

Vic Smith wrote, on Mon, 14 Dec 2015 08:08:30 -0600:

> They are basically marks on tires which are supposed to indicate
> "balance points." A red dot represents radial runout, a yellow dot
> represents the "light" spot of the tire.

Everything Vic Smith said is right on the money.

I'm still confused about one thing though, which is that I've read
*everything* on the net about these dots (those who know me can
believe that, by now), and I remember seeing slightly different
answers depending on which manufacturer makes the tires.

So, while Vic Smith is 100% correct, I'd always doublecheck with
the actual manufacturer of the tire that I'm mounting (and, for the
tires I most recently mounted myself, Vic's answer is spot on).

The purpose is to reduce the imbalance from the very beginning.

> But if you balance tires with a Hunter Road Force balancer, which is
> how I get my tires balanced, the dots end up at random locations.

I'm sure Vic Smith knows what he's talking about, but, upon first
inspection, I don't understand this statement because the tires go
on the rims by the dots *before* the tires get balanced on the machine.

I guess what Vic Smith is saying is that a "proper" tire mounting
job would be to mount the tire according to the match mounting
marks on the rim and the dots on the tire, and *then* spin balance
and *then* deflate the tire and slide the tire to get the best
balance *before* adding a single ounce of weight.

Of course, this is a *perfect* procedure, but, I have *never* seen
anyone do it on "my" tires when mine are dynamically balanced.

The tire monkey knows *how*; it's just work and, most customers
don't know the difference.

> If I was bubble-balancing my own tires, I'd use them.

Yup. I have only mounted and balanced 6 tires (5 of my own and one
for a friend on a SUV). Mine are stock BMW alloy wheels, which have
match-mounting marks and which were pretty well balanced when I
match mounted the tires according to the dots. The static balance
was pretty good with very little zinc weight being added.

The SUV steel rim was harder. First, I couldn't *find* the match
mounting mark, and it took more weight (a lot more) than the BBS
alloy wheels did.

The neighbor didn't complain about vibration, even though I warned
her that she may feel vibration (it was a front tire besides).

> My kid worked mounting tires at Just Tires for a couple years and when
> I mentioned the dots to him he responded with, "Oh yeah, I noticed the
> dots sometimes. Didn't know what they were for. Interesting"
> And some tire manufacturers don't mark their tires with balance
> points.

Heh heh. This is why I call them tire monkeys (pardon my slur).
I buy from TireRack and I have them shipped to my address so I can
bring them to any tire-rack-recommended dealer.

First I brought them to Goodyear, and when I told them to match
mount, they asked "me" where to put the dots! True story!

I had to look it up because, as I said, it can change based on
what the manufacturer says.

The next time I replaced tires, for my wife's car, I went to a
different shop where I brought the printout for match mounting
with me. Again, they had to read the damn thing.

Most tire monkeys were *taught* this stuff, I'm sure (because it's
basic tires101; but they don't give a hoot, and most of their
customers don't know any better.

As always, if you want the job done right, you have to do it yourself.

On Mon, 14 Dec 2015 14:34:34 -0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
> wrote:


>> But if you balance tires with a Hunter Road Force balancer, which is
>> how I get my tires balanced, the dots end up at random locations.
>
>I'm sure Vic Smith knows what he's talking about, but, upon first
>inspection, I don't understand this statement because the tires go
>on the rims by the dots *before* the tires get balanced on the machine.
>
>I guess what Vic Smith is saying is that a "proper" tire mounting
>job would be to mount the tire according to the match mounting
>marks on the rim and the dots on the tire, and *then* spin balance
>and *then* deflate the tire and slide the tire to get the best
>balance *before* adding a single ounce of weight.
>
>Of course, this is a *perfect* procedure, but, I have *never* seen
>anyone do it on "my" tires when mine are dynamically balanced.
>

Right. But that's the "ideal." It's called "matching"
Even though I get my tires road force balanced, I was never around to
watch the guy do it.
I assume they just mounted the tire and balanced it on the machine.
Think about it. You can save 1/2 ounce of weight by spinning the tire
90 degrees on the rim, or just use the 1/2 ounce.
The average guy is just guy is just going to add the weight.
Why remove the tire, take it to another machine, deflate it, etc?
It's okay with me, since I'm not paying for "matching."

>The tire monkey knows *how*; it's just work and, most customers
>don't know the difference.
>

As long as there's no difference it doesn't matter to me.

On 12/14/2015 07:56 AM, Vic Smith wrote:
> On Mon, 14 Dec 2015 14:34:34 -0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
> > wrote:
>
>
>>> But if you balance tires with a Hunter Road Force balancer, which is
>>> how I get my tires balanced, the dots end up at random locations.
>>
>>I'm sure Vic Smith knows what he's talking about, but, upon first
>>inspection, I don't understand this statement because the tires go
>>on the rims by the dots *before* the tires get balanced on the machine.
>>
>>I guess what Vic Smith is saying is that a "proper" tire mounting
>>job would be to mount the tire according to the match mounting
>>marks on the rim and the dots on the tire, and *then* spin balance
>>and *then* deflate the tire and slide the tire to get the best
>>balance *before* adding a single ounce of weight.
>>
>>Of course, this is a *perfect* procedure, but, I have *never* seen
>>anyone do it on "my" tires when mine are dynamically balanced.
>
> Right. But that's the "ideal." It's called "matching"
> Even though I get my tires road force balanced, I was never around to
> watch the guy do it.
> I assume they just mounted the tire and balanced it on the machine.
> Think about it. You can save 1/2 ounce of weight by spinning the tire
> 90 degrees on the rim, or just use the 1/2 ounce.
> The average guy is just guy is just going to add the weight.
> Why remove the tire, take it to another machine, deflate it, etc?
> It's okay with me, since I'm not paying for "matching."
>
>>The tire monkey knows *how*; it's just work and, most customers
>>don't know the difference.
>
> As long as there's no difference it doesn't matter to me.

You guys just made me go out and look :-( 4 Falken tires from America's
Tire, fronts a year old, rears maybe 4 months. No dots, and the
placement of the tire on the wheel seemed to be random. I saw only one
small weight. That seems odd, unless they put them on the inside of the
wheel too.

Apparently the thinking now is to put new tires on the rear instead of
the front. This really seems WRONG.

--
Cheers, Bev
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++
"History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people
maintaining a free civil government."
-- letter from Thomas Jefferson to Baron vonHumboldt, 1813

On 12/14/2015 10:54 AM, The Real Bev wrote:
>
> You guys just made me go out and look :-( 4 Falken tires from America's
> Tire, fronts a year old, rears maybe 4 months. No dots, and the
> placement of the tire on the wheel seemed to be random. I saw only one
> small weight. That seems odd, unless they put them on the inside of the
> wheel too.

Which is common.

> Apparently the thinking now is to put new tires on the rear instead of
> the front. This really seems WRONG.

"When replacing only two tires, the new ones go on the front.

The truth: Rear tires provide stability, and without stability, steering or
braking on a wet or even damp surface might cause a spin. If you have
new tires up front, they will easily disperse water while the half-worn
rears will go surfing: The water will literally lift the worn rear tires
off the road. If you're in a slight corner or on a crowned road, the car
will spin out so fast you won't be able to say, "Oh, fudge!"

There is no "even if" to this one. Whether you own a front-, rear- or
all-wheel-drive car, truck, or SUV, the tires with the most tread go
on the rear."
http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars...nked-10031440/

Vic Smith wrote, on Mon, 14 Dec 2015 09:56:13 -0600:

> I assume they just mounted the tire and balanced it on the machine.
> Think about it. You can save 1/2 ounce of weight by spinning the tire
> 90 degrees on the rim, or just use the 1/2 ounce.
> The average guy is just guy is just going to add the weight.
> Why remove the tire, take it to another machine, deflate it, etc?

Exactly.

For them, the *time* it takes to correctly mount your tire is
vastly more expensive than the weights.

By the way, I have match mounted my own tires to my BMW OEM rims
and you do *not* need to dismount the tire to match mount it.

What you do is mount it, but, due to the nature of mounting at
home with gobs of Liquid Palmolive as a lubricant, the tire
slides a little.

But a new tire that has no air in it is relatively easy to slide
on the rim. Of course, the bead has to be broken, which is a pain
if you can't do that on the Hunter balancer that you're using
to tell you where to slide the tire, so, maybe that's what
you're intimating they need to do on the second machine.

Anyway, we are in violent agreement.

There is a "proper" way to mount a tire, yet, I will wager
that just about 0% of passenger tires get mounted properly.

The Real Bev wrote, on Mon, 14 Dec 2015 08:54:31 -0800:

> You guys just made me go out and look :-( 4 Falken tires from America's
> Tire, fronts a year old, rears maybe 4 months. No dots, and the
> placement of the tire on the wheel seemed to be random.

Not all brands of tires have the yellow and red dots, unfortunately.

And, each brand may have a different interpretation.
And, many of the interpretations conflict with others.

Here is probably one of the better descriptions:
http://www.bridgestonetrucktires.com...0ask%20doc.pdf

Such is the complexity of knowing and understanding how things
work in the real world!

The point is that, if your tires *have* the dots, they'll *still* be
mounted wrong, simply because the tire monkey doesn't care about
properly mounting your tires (and, most likely, most customers wouldn't
know a properly mounted tire from an improperly mounted tire).

> I saw only one small weight. That seems odd, unless they put them
> on the inside of the wheel too.

The placement of the weights is a science in and onto itself.
Mine, for example, go on the inside of my BMW OEM BBS alloy wheels,
but the SUV with the steel rims I balanced had clip on weights
which went on the edges of the rim (and they have various shapes
of those things, which are diabolically similar in appearance,
but which are actually different).

Then there's the lead waste problem in California ...

.. wrote, on Mon, 14 Dec 2015 11:18:05 -0600:

> "When replacing only two tires, the new ones go on the front.

I have never owned a FWD vehicle but I don't know if the drive
wheels matter for where to put your best wheels.

What "I" do is not only put the best "tires" on the front, but
I put the best *wheels* on the front (i.e., the most round of
the rims, as measured by spinning the rims on the balancer
next to a stationary object to eyeball the out-of-roundness,
which all rims have to some degree, especially the soft rims
that BMW puts on their bimmers).

Please don't feel so bad about paying for non-service. Last time I went to a big-box national chair for simple tire stuff they did potentially life threatening sabotage; overtightened spindle nut.

I have only been lucky enough to have a repairable tire injury once or twice in my life. On my last set of tires, four Michelins nearly became three Michelins, but I was "lucky" enough for the screw I'd picked up to be squarely in the tread.

Took it to a Firestone shop with a good reputation. They fixed it properly, with the patch & plug method. Put it back on the car, drove it several more years.

Other than that, it's always been a hole in the sidewall, or a hard-to-find slow leak, or even a pair of front tires that I made out-of-round (i.e. broke the steel belts) by hitting a curb. Oops.

I am really glad that the original owners of my car opted for the full-size spare tire. Yes, it takes up some room in the trunk, but it sure is nice to not have to drive around on a "donut."