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#21
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'89 CRX won't start - frustration
"jim beam" > wrote
> er, ok, so when your *intermittent* fault happens to be /not/ evident > when you test, and faulty when you're trying to start, then what? fact: > for this age civic/crx, you're well inside 3 sigma on relay faults. It doesn't work that way. It fails on or off when the car sits for that long. Especially, parking overnight the solder joint normally restores itself. In fact, the OP hears the 2 second after the ignition is on. |
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#22
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'89 CRX won't start - frustration
ThomasE wrote: > Oh the ignition wires are pretty old and they are OEM. But could all 4 > wires fail all of a sudden? > > I'll do some more methodical testing tomorrow... Why not just spray some starter fluid into the air intake to see if it wants to start? If it then wants to start, you know it most likely is not air or ignition.. |
#23
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'89 CRX won't start - frustration
Three quick checks I'd do on old OEM wires: (1) Run the car
in the dark and look for sparks coming from the wires. (2) Run the car at idle with the hood up. Spray the wires with misting water. Listen for changes in the idle speed. That's a tip off (according to Tegger's site) that they need replacement. Seems reasonable to me. (3) Check the wire resistance. Should be under 15,000 ohms each. Old wires are said to be harder on the ignition coil, too. So it pays to replace them (with new OEM ones). You sound plenty expert in your automotive knowledge. I hope you nail this one, soon! Should be good. "ThomasE" > wrote > Oh the ignition wires are pretty old and they are OEM. But > could all 4 > wires fail all of a sudden? > > I'll do some more methodical testing tomorrow... > > > |
#24
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'89 CRX won't start - frustration
Elle wrote:
> Three quick checks I'd do on old OEM wires: (1) Run the car > in the dark and look for sparks coming from the wires. (2) > Run the car at idle with the hood up. That's a good idea, except the car won't run... --- avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 0612-4, 03/25/2006 Tested on: 3/27/2006 7:37:47 AM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2005 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com |
#25
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'89 CRX won't start - frustration
"Matt Ion" > wrote
> Elle wrote: >> Three quick checks I'd do on old OEM wires: (1) Run the >> car in the dark and look for sparks coming from the >> wires. (2) Run the car at idle with the hood up. > > That's a good idea, except the car won't run... Oops. :-) |
#26
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UPDATE
UPDATE
Thank you very much for your support. Sometimes just knowing that somebody else is just as puzzled gives you energy to keep investigating… Today the car did finally start but unfortunately without revealing any clues as to what the problem is, so I’m sure that this no start problem will reappear sooner or later. Here is what I did today Monday in the order I did it: 1. First I tried to crank the engine without doing anything, just in case Cranked engine - No start. 2. Then CLEANED SPARK PLUGS: I took out all 4 spark plugs and cleaned them with wire brush and adjusted the gap (the gap had increased to about 1.2mm, I reset it to 0.9mm). The plugs did not seem fouled with oil or gasoline although there was a faint smell of gasoline on them, normal I assume although I have not tried to debug such problems before. Plug electrode appearance looked normal to me just a light gray very few deposits which I removed with wire brush. Cleaned the wire ends and spark plug hole and reinstalled the spark plugs. Cranked engine – NO START – perhaps an occasional very weak firing as usual. 3. Then SPRAYED STARTER FLUID INTO INTAKE MANIFOLD: Took out the air hose at the intake manifold, opened the throttle butterfly to make sure the started fluid would go in, and then sprayed starter fluid directly into the intake manifold for 3-4 seconds. I could not see inside the intake manifold but I opened the throttle butterfly and inserted a screwdriver into it, to make sure there were no other obstructions, all was fine. Cranked engine - NO START - perhaps an occasional very weak firing as usual. 4. REPEATED SPRAYING STARTER FLUID INTO INTAKE for another 3-4 seconds just to make sure, Cranked engine - NO START -perhaps an occasional very weak firing as usual. 5. CLEANED THE DISTRIBUTOR: Since I had already checked for spark a couple of days ago, I removed the plastic black distributor housing, it did not seem dirty inside but cleaned it anyway with some alcohol. Cranked engine - NO START -perhaps an occasional very weak firing as usual. 6. INSISTED CRANKING: In frustration, since I was occasionally hearing weak firing I insisted cranking the engine. Whenever I fully depressed the accelerator there seemed to be more firing. After two 20second cranks it seemed that the firing had increased. The firing seemed smooth (that is, it did not seem that just a few cylinders were firing it just seemed like weak uniform firing but I could be wrong). At the end of the third 20 second crank it started firing more and I kept cranking more until the engine finally RELUCTANTLY STARTED somewhat erratically first for about 5 seconds and then normal. Quite a bit of smoke came out of the exhaust but that could have been the started fluid. Once started the high idle was normal, engine noise normal, revving up normal, no smoke from exhaust. I let it idle for a couple of minutes and then turned it off. I waited 1 minute, re-cranked and it started normally. Turned engine off. Waited 15 minutes cranked- started normally. Took car for test drive all was normal. Accelerated at full throttle going 35mph on a steep hill power was normal no missing or other signs of fuel starvation. Turned engine off, waited 30 minutes cranked – started normally. Turned engine off, waited 1 hour cranked – started normally. With the engine idling I did the SPRAY BOTTLE TEST sprayed spark plug wires and distributor until they were drenched, no change in idling or other engine behavior. With the engine idling I slowly removed each one of the spark plug wires until the cylinder I was unplugging stopped firing. I noticed that the spark must be STRONG because it seemed I had to remove the wire by about ½ inch from the spark plug before any one cylinder stopped firing (although the engine was able to kept idling on 3 cylinders). The reluctant slow way in which the engine started and the smoke from the exhaust would point to flooding/fouling but, as I described in step 2, I had taken out all 4 spark plugs and they seemed clean, besides I cleaned them thoroughly in step 2 and it still would not start. Meanwhile throughout this process I could always hear the fuel pump running for 2 seconds as soon as I turned the ignition. As I had said in my original posting I had already tested the fuel pressure last Thursday and I had also tested for spark. Soooo… I am puzzled. I’m sure the problem will return sooner or later and I’m running out of diagnostic tests. You are probably starting to think that I am making all this up to puzzle you… I will take out the main relay and re-solder it, seems like an easy job, not much to loose by doing it just in case… |
#27
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UPDATE
"ThomasE" > wrote
> With the engine idling I slowly removed each one of the > spark plug wires > until the cylinder I was unplugging stopped firing. I > noticed that the > spark must be STRONG because it seemed I had to remove the > wire by about ½ > inch from the spark plug before any one cylinder stopped > firing (although > the engine was able to kept idling on 3 cylinders). For future reference, doesn't this risk overloading the ignition coil or something? See http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/start...tml#checkspark .. Plus some guy a few months ago did something like you describe and burned out his ignition coil. > Soooo. I am puzzled. I'm sure the problem will return > sooner or later and > I'm running out of diagnostic tests. You are probably > starting to think > that I am making all this up to puzzle you. > I will take out the main relay and re-solder it, seems > like an easy job, > not much to loose by doing it just in case. Right, I'm not confident it's the main relay, but if you've really got the time, eliminate it. Unfortunately it's a bit of a bear to get out. Most folks say leave the casing bracketed to the wall and just slide out the guts. Certainly seems like the symptoms point to some odd flooding condition. Did you dump a bottle of Chevron Techron into the near empty fuel tank (and then fill the tank) yet? Be interesting to hear whether the car starts tomorrow... |
#28
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UPDATE
Yes, I was a little concerned about the coil but compared to this
frustrating problem changing the coil did not seem that bad. Besides, as I tried this on the first cylinder I noticed that even when the wire is pulled away from the spark, the spark was still discharging from the wire end to the engine (inside the spark pug hole). The bad thing would be if the spark had absolutely nowhere to discharge and discharged through the coil insulation inside the coil. Had that been the case I would have had second thoughts about repeating the procedure on all cylinders. |
#29
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UPDATE
I understand. You ensured you had a ground. That's the key.
"ThomasE" > wrote > Yes, I was a little concerned about the coil but compared > to this > frustrating problem changing the coil did not seem that > bad. Besides, as I > tried this on the first cylinder I noticed that even when > the wire is > pulled away from the spark, the spark was still > discharging from the wire > end to the engine (inside the spark pug hole). The bad > thing would be if > the spark had absolutely nowhere to discharge and > discharged through the > coil insulation inside the coil. Had that been the case I > would have had > second thoughts about repeating the procedure on all > cylinders. > |
#30
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UPDATE
ThomasE wrote:
> Yes, I was a little concerned about the coil but compared to this > frustrating problem changing the coil did not seem that bad. Besides, as I > tried this on the first cylinder I noticed that even when the wire is > pulled away from the spark, the spark was still discharging from the wire > end to the engine (inside the spark pug hole). The bad thing would be if > the spark had absolutely nowhere to discharge and discharged through the > coil insulation inside the coil. Had that been the case I would have had > second thoughts about repeating the procedure on all cylinders. Now that you've gotten it to start, it occurred to me that I've seen something like this on a Subaru once where the thermosensor was defective and adjusted the mixture such that the car just would not start. Subarus get into this mode after starting repeatedly where the mixture goes to a mid range for debug purposes (one can also short two pins together). It does the exact same thing you are describing: not starting for a long time and then suddenly starting. After the car cools down, the problem would re-appear. This information was just "for what it is worth" - Subies are quite different than Hondas but just for giggles check the thermosensor... Remco |
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