Genuine Shop Manuals Standard Equipment on All Cars

Nomen Nescio wrote:
>
> I'm waiting now for the complaint even $1.50 is a lot on a $30,000 car.
> Okay! Then we need a quick and dirty FEDERAL LAW MANDATING CD-ROM manuals
> in the interests of public safety. Improperly repaired cars are dangerous
> to your health and painful to your pocketbook as well. Let them charge
> $30,001.50 after the passage of this badly needed law...

You are ignoring an important factor. The $1.50 number you are giving
is the **recurring** cost (how much $$ it takes to procure the blank
disc and burn and pacakge the finished product or contract someone to do
same on a mass scale). You have failed to factor in the non-recurring
cost of creating the information and formating that goes into the manual
(the up-front development cost that comes right off the corporate bottom
line before the recurring cost of the first unit is recovered).

Pass a law that the manual has to be supplied with each vehicle, and the
development cost of the manual amortized over each vehicle will be a lot
more than $1.50 - and a lot less than the $100 that you pay for a
typical FSM now on an individual basis. But at least now, that moderate
per-unit cost is not being forced on those who have no desire or use for
it. It is being borne by those who both want it and are getting value
for what they are paying. Mandate it with every car, and the person who
can't even spell FSM will be forced to pay for something that is useless
to them.

IOW, pass that law, and the person for whom the manual is a useless item
is subsidizing the one who will really use and benefit from it. As it
is now, the total cost is carried by those who are getting something of
value that they, by their freedom of will, are willing to pay for.

One other aspect: The information that the manufacturer puts in the
manual is intellectual property. They can charge big bucks for it or
give it away. The customer has the right to buy the competitor's
product instead if they choose to punish the manufacturer who they think
is gouging them. IOW, if one manufaturer wants $600 or $700 for an FSM,
which some in fact do, and another wants only $92, I can make that a
zero, small, big, or sole factor in my decision on whose product to
purchase. It's called a free-market system.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
adddress with the letter 'x')

Ol' Duffer wrote:

> Here's my idea: Since most vehicles seem to be going toward
> onboard computers anyway, why not install a LAN port in the
> dashboard with a web server applet and burn the manual files
> into flash memory? Each vehicle would be furnished with the
> latest information as it comes down the assembly line, and
> you could even do automatic updates via XM radio satellite
> feed. Anyone with a network enabled computer could view the
> files, print out pages if needed, maintain service logs, etc.


But how would you figure out how to repair the defective flash memory?

Show me a car over four years old without faulty computer systems....

Ol' Duffer wrote:

> Here's my idea: Since most vehicles seem to be going toward
> onboard computers anyway, why not install a LAN port in the
> dashboard with a web server applet and burn the manual files
> into flash memory? Each vehicle would be furnished with the
> latest information as it comes down the assembly line, and
> you could even do automatic updates via XM radio satellite
> feed. Anyone with a network enabled computer could view the
> files, print out pages if needed, maintain service logs, etc.


But how would you figure out how to repair the defective flash memory?

Show me a car over four years old without faulty computer systems....

mike gray wrote:

> Ol' Duffer wrote:
>
>> Here's my idea: Since most vehicles seem to be going toward
>> onboard computers anyway, why not install a LAN port in the
>> dashboard with a web server applet and burn the manual files
>> into flash memory? Each vehicle would be furnished with the
>> latest information as it comes down the assembly line, and
>> you could even do automatic updates via XM radio satellite
>> feed. Anyone with a network enabled computer could view the
>> files, print out pages if needed, maintain service logs, etc.
>
>
>
> But how would you figure out how to repair the defective flash memory?
>
> Show me a car over four years old without faulty computer systems....
>

I've got two of them, a 1996 Grand Voyager and a 1994 Chevy K1500. When
do you want to see them? :-)


Matt

mike gray wrote:

> Ol' Duffer wrote:
>
>> Here's my idea: Since most vehicles seem to be going toward
>> onboard computers anyway, why not install a LAN port in the
>> dashboard with a web server applet and burn the manual files
>> into flash memory? Each vehicle would be furnished with the
>> latest information as it comes down the assembly line, and
>> you could even do automatic updates via XM radio satellite
>> feed. Anyone with a network enabled computer could view the
>> files, print out pages if needed, maintain service logs, etc.
>
>
>
> But how would you figure out how to repair the defective flash memory?
>
> Show me a car over four years old without faulty computer systems....
>

I've got two of them, a 1996 Grand Voyager and a 1994 Chevy K1500. When
do you want to see them? :-)


Matt

Well said Bill. This is a great example of why free market should
prevail. I do like the idea of manuals being included with the
vehicles, I just think making it a law is a bad idea.


On Tue, 07 Dec 2004 19:38:24 -0500, Bill Putney >
wrote:

>Nomen Nescio wrote:
>>
>> I'm waiting now for the complaint even $1.50 is a lot on a $30,000 car.
>> Okay! Then we need a quick and dirty FEDERAL LAW MANDATING CD-ROM manuals
>> in the interests of public safety. Improperly repaired cars are dangerous
>> to your health and painful to your pocketbook as well. Let them charge
>> $30,001.50 after the passage of this badly needed law...
>
>You are ignoring an important factor. The $1.50 number you are giving
>is the **recurring** cost (how much $$ it takes to procure the blank
>disc and burn and pacakge the finished product or contract someone to do
>same on a mass scale). You have failed to factor in the non-recurring
>cost of creating the information and formating that goes into the manual
>(the up-front development cost that comes right off the corporate bottom
>line before the recurring cost of the first unit is recovered).
>
>Pass a law that the manual has to be supplied with each vehicle, and the
>development cost of the manual amortized over each vehicle will be a lot
>more than $1.50 - and a lot less than the $100 that you pay for a
>typical FSM now on an individual basis. But at least now, that moderate
>per-unit cost is not being forced on those who have no desire or use for
>it. It is being borne by those who both want it and are getting value
>for what they are paying. Mandate it with every car, and the person who
>can't even spell FSM will be forced to pay for something that is useless
>to them.
>
>IOW, pass that law, and the person for whom the manual is a useless item
>is subsidizing the one who will really use and benefit from it. As it
>is now, the total cost is carried by those who are getting something of
>value that they, by their freedom of will, are willing to pay for.
>
>One other aspect: The information that the manufacturer puts in the
>manual is intellectual property. They can charge big bucks for it or
>give it away. The customer has the right to buy the competitor's
>product instead if they choose to punish the manufacturer who they think
>is gouging them. IOW, if one manufaturer wants $600 or $700 for an FSM,
>which some in fact do, and another wants only $92, I can make that a
>zero, small, big, or sole factor in my decision on whose product to
>purchase. It's called a free-market system.
>
>Bill Putney
>(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
>adddress with the letter 'x')

Well said Bill. This is a great example of why free market should
prevail. I do like the idea of manuals being included with the
vehicles, I just think making it a law is a bad idea.


On Tue, 07 Dec 2004 19:38:24 -0500, Bill Putney >
wrote:

>Nomen Nescio wrote:
>>
>> I'm waiting now for the complaint even $1.50 is a lot on a $30,000 car.
>> Okay! Then we need a quick and dirty FEDERAL LAW MANDATING CD-ROM manuals
>> in the interests of public safety. Improperly repaired cars are dangerous
>> to your health and painful to your pocketbook as well. Let them charge
>> $30,001.50 after the passage of this badly needed law...
>
>You are ignoring an important factor. The $1.50 number you are giving
>is the **recurring** cost (how much $$ it takes to procure the blank
>disc and burn and pacakge the finished product or contract someone to do
>same on a mass scale). You have failed to factor in the non-recurring
>cost of creating the information and formating that goes into the manual
>(the up-front development cost that comes right off the corporate bottom
>line before the recurring cost of the first unit is recovered).
>
>Pass a law that the manual has to be supplied with each vehicle, and the
>development cost of the manual amortized over each vehicle will be a lot
>more than $1.50 - and a lot less than the $100 that you pay for a
>typical FSM now on an individual basis. But at least now, that moderate
>per-unit cost is not being forced on those who have no desire or use for
>it. It is being borne by those who both want it and are getting value
>for what they are paying. Mandate it with every car, and the person who
>can't even spell FSM will be forced to pay for something that is useless
>to them.
>
>IOW, pass that law, and the person for whom the manual is a useless item
>is subsidizing the one who will really use and benefit from it. As it
>is now, the total cost is carried by those who are getting something of
>value that they, by their freedom of will, are willing to pay for.
>
>One other aspect: The information that the manufacturer puts in the
>manual is intellectual property. They can charge big bucks for it or
>give it away. The customer has the right to buy the competitor's
>product instead if they choose to punish the manufacturer who they think
>is gouging them. IOW, if one manufaturer wants $600 or $700 for an FSM,
>which some in fact do, and another wants only $92, I can make that a
>zero, small, big, or sole factor in my decision on whose product to
>purchase. It's called a free-market system.
>
>Bill Putney
>(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
>adddress with the letter 'x')

Ol' Duffer wrote:
> Here's my idea: Since most vehicles seem to be going toward
> onboard computers anyway, why not install a LAN port in the
> dashboard with a web server applet and burn the manual files
> into flash memory? Each vehicle would be furnished with the
> latest information as it comes down the assembly line, and
> you could even do automatic updates via XM radio satellite
> feed. Anyone with a network enabled computer could view the
> files, print out pages if needed, maintain service logs, etc.
>

How about offering a download of the shop manual in PDF format if you
have the VIN?

Offer it free to vehicles under warranty.
Charge $2 for vehicles outside of warranty.

Ray

Ol' Duffer wrote:
> Here's my idea: Since most vehicles seem to be going toward
> onboard computers anyway, why not install a LAN port in the
> dashboard with a web server applet and burn the manual files
> into flash memory? Each vehicle would be furnished with the
> latest information as it comes down the assembly line, and
> you could even do automatic updates via XM radio satellite
> feed. Anyone with a network enabled computer could view the
> files, print out pages if needed, maintain service logs, etc.
>

How about offering a download of the shop manual in PDF format if you
have the VIN?

Offer it free to vehicles under warranty.
Charge $2 for vehicles outside of warranty.

Ray

"Mark Olson" > wrote in message
...
>
> Are you saying that Ford won't release repair info to their UK customers,
> and Ford's reason for this is somehow related to the behavior of Ford's
> customers in the USA?
>
> I'm not following you at all. I'm in the US and I can purchase the
> genuine Ford factory workshop manuals and/or CDs (from Helm, Inc.) without
> any restrictions (other than the cost).

I know here in the US there's a law that says that they can't not sell the
service manuals to people wanting to buy them. I'm not sure about overseas
though.

What I think he's trying to say though is over here people'll hurt
themselves because of themselves working on the car then sue the
manufacturer so they just don't sell them.