spark plug question

In message >, Vic Smith
> writes
>I just started here, so excuse me if this was covered.
>Good point about which plug. In my experience OEM is best.
>Those plugs look oil fouled. Not bad though, and it's running good
>enough to burn off most the oil.
>Could be blowby, could be valve seals.
>For valves seals oil gets sucked in at higher vacuum, backing down on
>speed or idling.
>I had a Ford 352 that would use a quart every 500 miles in local
>driving. Went on a 3000 road trip and didn't use a quart.
>****ed me of because I had completely rebuilt it, but the shop I took
>the heads to screwed up on the valve seals.
>Without the miss the plugs may stay clean. Maybe.
>You don't mention miles on the engine.
>I've never had luck pinpointing bad injectors. Just did OHM tests
>though. Always bit the bullet and put all new in.
>'92 is getting long in the tooth. You might want to run a compression
>test before you throw money at it.
Leaking valve guides show up as a puff of blue smoke when you accelerate
from a idle. At that age the injectors can be either electronic or
mechanical depending on the system used. Bosch made both, but I don't
know anything about American cars.
--
Clive

On Thu, 17 May 2012 21:16:07 +0100, Clive >
wrote:

>In message >, Vic Smith
> writes
>>I just started here, so excuse me if this was covered.
>>Good point about which plug. In my experience OEM is best.
>>Those plugs look oil fouled. Not bad though, and it's running good
>>enough to burn off most the oil.
>>Could be blowby, could be valve seals.
>>For valves seals oil gets sucked in at higher vacuum, backing down on
>>speed or idling.
>>I had a Ford 352 that would use a quart every 500 miles in local
>>driving. Went on a 3000 road trip and didn't use a quart.
>>****ed me of because I had completely rebuilt it, but the shop I took
>>the heads to screwed up on the valve seals.
>>Without the miss the plugs may stay clean. Maybe.
>>You don't mention miles on the engine.
>>I've never had luck pinpointing bad injectors. Just did OHM tests
>>though. Always bit the bullet and put all new in.
>>'92 is getting long in the tooth. You might want to run a compression
>>test before you throw money at it.
>Leaking valve guides show up as a puff of blue smoke when you accelerate
>from a idle. At that age the injectors can be either electronic or
>mechanical depending on the system used. Bosch made both, but I don't
>know anything about American cars.

American cars have catalytic converters, which can eat a lot of oil
before they fail.
My son had a car with worn cylinders walls that ate oil like crazy
with no outwardly visible signs - until the cat failed and he had to
punch holes in it with a screwdriver to get down the road - smoking.
I didn't have a cat on my 352, and never saw puffs of smoke.
I could smell it when conditions were right.
It was a pick-up so that obscures the exhaust. An Explorer isn't much
different in that regard.
Anyway, if there are no leaks, checking the dipstick tell the tale.
I don't recall my plugs getting fouled like the OP's, but I changed
plugs spring and fall back then, and a quart every 500 miles isn't
very serious as oil burning goes.

--
Vic

On 05/16/2012 09:15 PM, Ashton Crusher wrote:
> On Wed, 16 May 2012 19:16:27 -0700, jim > wrote:
>
>> On 05/16/2012 07:58 AM, Jim Yanik wrote:
>> <brevity>
>>>>
>>>
>>> constant pulling of the plug wires can damage the center
>>> conductor/connection,usually at the ends.
>>> or there could be an insulation break,allowing your spark energy to go
>>> astray,under certain conditions.
>>
>> indeed.
>>
>>>
>>> Or a cheapo dist.cap/rotor could cause problems.
>>
>> yup. but if it's a rotor, it's usually a problem affecting all
>> cylinders, not just one.
>
>
> On this Vehicle, the explorer, there is no distributor, just a
> computer and coil pack and pickup coil down by the harmonic balancer.

so it could still be a plug lead from the coil pack.


> One of the reasons I'm leaning toward the fuel injectors as the
> underlying problem is that in the past when I've had ignition system
> problems they were the worst at high load/high rpm. In this case the
> problem goes away at high load-high rpm.

in that case, it's unlikely to be injectors - high load is where issues
like blockage or insufficient opening show up the most.

ignition voltage requirements are highest for idle and high load, with,
i think, idle being the worst. which is consistent with what you've
described.


> I wonder if what I'm
> perceiving as a "Miss" is really knocking from too lean a mixture.

i think that if it does away with new plugs, and in just 5k miles, the
plugs are as ashed up as they are and starting to miss, your problem is
oil fouling. start the motor from cold, run it just enough for the miss
to be present, then shut it down and pull the offending plugs. that
way, they shouldn't be hot enough to have burned off any oil, and you'll
be able to see whether all that black stuff on the plug walls is also
present on the plug tip.

further thought on re-reading your second post:

1. use ngk plugs if you can get them for this vehicle. while i don't
specifically endorse them, i've never had a problem with them, and i
have every other plug manufacturer, sooner or later. especially bosch.

2. check out the e.g.r. system. these things tend to coke up and when
they do, you get ignition flat spots that lead to hesitation and
"misfires".

this last doesn't explain why new plugs should help of course, but egr
blockage is very common and give drivability problems like you describe.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

On May 17, 9:43*pm, jim beam > wrote:
> On 05/16/2012 09:15 PM, Ashton Crusher wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Wed, 16 May 2012 19:16:27 -0700, jim > *wrote:
>
> >> On 05/16/2012 07:58 AM, Jim Yanik wrote:
> >> <brevity>
>
> >>> constant pulling of the plug wires can damage the center
> >>> conductor/connection,usually at the ends.
> >>> or there could be an insulation break,allowing your spark energy to go
> >>> astray,under certain conditions.
>
> >> indeed.
>
> >>> Or a cheapo dist.cap/rotor could cause problems.
>
> >> yup. *but if it's a rotor, it's usually a problem affecting all
> >> cylinders, not just one.
>
> > On this Vehicle, the explorer, there is no distributor, just a
> > computer and coil pack and pickup coil down by the harmonic balancer.
>
> so it could still be a plug lead from the coil pack.
>
> > One of the reasons I'm leaning toward the fuel injectors as the
> > underlying problem is that in the past when I've had ignition system
> > problems they were the worst at high load/high rpm. *In this case the
> > problem goes away at high load-high rpm.
>
> in that case, it's unlikely to be injectors - high load is where issues
> like blockage or insufficient opening show up the most.
>
> ignition voltage requirements are highest for idle and high load, with,
> i think, idle being the worst. *which is consistent with what you've
> described.
>
> > I wonder if what I'm
> > perceiving as a "Miss" is really knocking from too lean a mixture.
>
> i think that if it does away with new plugs, and in just 5k miles, the
> plugs are as ashed up as they are and starting to miss, your problem is
> oil fouling. *start the motor from cold, run it just enough for the miss
> to be present, then shut it down and pull the offending plugs. *that
> way, they shouldn't be hot enough to have burned off any oil, and you'll
> be able to see whether all that black stuff on the plug walls is also
> present on the plug tip.
>
> further thought on re-reading your second post:
>
> 1. use ngk plugs if you can get them for this vehicle. *while i don't
> specifically endorse them, i've never had a problem with them, and i
> have every other plug manufacturer, sooner or later. *especially bosch.
>
> 2. check out the e.g.r. system. *these things tend to coke up and when
> they do, you get ignition flat spots that lead to hesitation and
> "misfires".
>
> this last doesn't explain why new plugs should help of course, but egr
> blockage is very common and give drivability problems like you describe.
>
> --
> nomina rutrum rutrum- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I've actually had a couple of issues with NGK.. Getting carbon stuck
in the electrode.. Went back to regular plugs and all is well.

I try to sell what originally went in the vehicle.

Fords - Autolite / Motocraft
GM - AC Delco
Chryslers - Champion
Euro & Japanese etc NGK & Bosch.

Though you can basically use brand plug in any vehicle some plugs just
seem to run better in certain vehicles.

We have one customer who puts champion in everything, and we have
another customer who wouldn't put champion plugs in a row boat.

On Thu, 17 May 2012 18:43:59 -0700, jim beam > wrote:

>On 05/16/2012 09:15 PM, Ashton Crusher wrote:
>> On Wed, 16 May 2012 19:16:27 -0700, jim > wrote:
>>
>>> On 05/16/2012 07:58 AM, Jim Yanik wrote:
>>> <brevity>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> constant pulling of the plug wires can damage the center
>>>> conductor/connection,usually at the ends.
>>>> or there could be an insulation break,allowing your spark energy to go
>>>> astray,under certain conditions.
>>>
>>> indeed.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Or a cheapo dist.cap/rotor could cause problems.
>>>
>>> yup. but if it's a rotor, it's usually a problem affecting all
>>> cylinders, not just one.
>>
>>
>> On this Vehicle, the explorer, there is no distributor, just a
>> computer and coil pack and pickup coil down by the harmonic balancer.
>
>so it could still be a plug lead from the coil pack.
>
>
>> One of the reasons I'm leaning toward the fuel injectors as the
>> underlying problem is that in the past when I've had ignition system
>> problems they were the worst at high load/high rpm. In this case the
>> problem goes away at high load-high rpm.
>
>in that case, it's unlikely to be injectors - high load is where issues
>like blockage or insufficient opening show up the most.
>
>ignition voltage requirements are highest for idle and high load, with,
>i think, idle being the worst. which is consistent with what you've
>described.
>
>
>> I wonder if what I'm
>> perceiving as a "Miss" is really knocking from too lean a mixture.
>
>i think that if it does away with new plugs, and in just 5k miles, the
>plugs are as ashed up as they are and starting to miss, your problem is
>oil fouling. start the motor from cold, run it just enough for the miss
>to be present, then shut it down and pull the offending plugs. that
>way, they shouldn't be hot enough to have burned off any oil, and you'll
>be able to see whether all that black stuff on the plug walls is also
>present on the plug tip.
>
>further thought on re-reading your second post:
>
>1. use ngk plugs if you can get them for this vehicle. while i don't
>specifically endorse them, i've never had a problem with them, and i
>have every other plug manufacturer, sooner or later. especially bosch.
>
>2. check out the e.g.r. system. these things tend to coke up and when
>they do, you get ignition flat spots that lead to hesitation and
>"misfires".
>
>this last doesn't explain why new plugs should help of course, but egr
>blockage is very common and give drivability problems like you describe.


I'll have to check the manual to be sure but I don't think this engine
has an EGR. The plug wires were new when I put the Bosch plugs in,
which is less then 10,000 miles. They could still be bad but they are
not very old. I think they were autozone premium brand, might have
been bosch.

On Fri, 18 May 2012 10:43:54 -0700 (PDT), m6onz5a
> wrote:

>On May 17, 9:43*pm, jim beam > wrote:
>> On 05/16/2012 09:15 PM, Ashton Crusher wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Wed, 16 May 2012 19:16:27 -0700, jim > *wrote:
>>
>> >> On 05/16/2012 07:58 AM, Jim Yanik wrote:
>> >> <brevity>
>>
>> >>> constant pulling of the plug wires can damage the center
>> >>> conductor/connection,usually at the ends.
>> >>> or there could be an insulation break,allowing your spark energy to go
>> >>> astray,under certain conditions.
>>
>> >> indeed.
>>
>> >>> Or a cheapo dist.cap/rotor could cause problems.
>>
>> >> yup. *but if it's a rotor, it's usually a problem affecting all
>> >> cylinders, not just one.
>>
>> > On this Vehicle, the explorer, there is no distributor, just a
>> > computer and coil pack and pickup coil down by the harmonic balancer.
>>
>> so it could still be a plug lead from the coil pack.
>>
>> > One of the reasons I'm leaning toward the fuel injectors as the
>> > underlying problem is that in the past when I've had ignition system
>> > problems they were the worst at high load/high rpm. *In this case the
>> > problem goes away at high load-high rpm.
>>
>> in that case, it's unlikely to be injectors - high load is where issues
>> like blockage or insufficient opening show up the most.
>>
>> ignition voltage requirements are highest for idle and high load, with,
>> i think, idle being the worst. *which is consistent with what you've
>> described.
>>
>> > I wonder if what I'm
>> > perceiving as a "Miss" is really knocking from too lean a mixture.
>>
>> i think that if it does away with new plugs, and in just 5k miles, the
>> plugs are as ashed up as they are and starting to miss, your problem is
>> oil fouling. *start the motor from cold, run it just enough for the miss
>> to be present, then shut it down and pull the offending plugs. *that
>> way, they shouldn't be hot enough to have burned off any oil, and you'll
>> be able to see whether all that black stuff on the plug walls is also
>> present on the plug tip.
>>
>> further thought on re-reading your second post:
>>
>> 1. use ngk plugs if you can get them for this vehicle. *while i don't
>> specifically endorse them, i've never had a problem with them, and i
>> have every other plug manufacturer, sooner or later. *especially bosch.
>>
>> 2. check out the e.g.r. system. *these things tend to coke up and when
>> they do, you get ignition flat spots that lead to hesitation and
>> "misfires".
>>
>> this last doesn't explain why new plugs should help of course, but egr
>> blockage is very common and give drivability problems like you describe.
>>
>> --
>> nomina rutrum rutrum- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
>I've actually had a couple of issues with NGK.. Getting carbon stuck
>in the electrode.. Went back to regular plugs and all is well.
>
>I try to sell what originally went in the vehicle.
>
>Fords - Autolite / Motocraft
>GM - AC Delco
>Chryslers - Champion
>Euro & Japanese etc NGK & Bosch.
>
>Though you can basically use brand plug in any vehicle some plugs just
>seem to run better in certain vehicles.
>
>We have one customer who puts champion in everything, and we have
>another customer who wouldn't put champion plugs in a row boat.


Champion seems to be the "fram" of spark plugs. Most people I've
talked to don't seem to have much good to say about them.

On Thu, 17 May 2012 11:53:56 -0700 (PDT), m6onz5a
> wrote:

>On May 14, 8:12*pm, Ashton Crusher > wrote:
>> I would appreciate any thoughts on what, if anything, these plugs are
>> saying... lean, rich, too hot, too cold, whatever.
>>
>> http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/1732/imag01561.jpg
>>
>> they are from a 92 explorer with a low rpm miss. *It scopes out fine
>> yet misses. *Replacing these plugs seems to "fix" it for about 5000
>> miles. *Searching the net suggests the problem is that the fuel
>> injectors are going bad and running too lean but not lean enough to
>> set a code. *No codes have popped up. *Over 2000 rpm it runs smooth
>> right up to redline in any gear.
>
>What was the Bosch part # installed? Maybe the wrong plugs are
>installed as well?


Don't know. But thinking on this, I always got 30,000K+ out of plugs
in this truck and was just replacing them "because". So back around
10K miles ago I it was due for plugs just "because" so since it had
over 120K on the original wires I figured I'd do the wires too "just
to be safe". Then 5K later it starts missing. The shop replaced the
bosch with Motorcraft and miss went away. Now about 5000 miles later
the miss came back.... replaced the three easy plugs and the miss is
gone again. Does make me wonder if the new wires are the underlying
cause.

On Thu, 17 May 2012 14:47:06 -0500, Vic Smith
> wrote:

>On Thu, 17 May 2012 11:53:56 -0700 (PDT), m6onz5a
> wrote:
>
>>On May 14, 8:12*pm, Ashton Crusher > wrote:
>>> I would appreciate any thoughts on what, if anything, these plugs are
>>> saying... lean, rich, too hot, too cold, whatever.
>>>
>>> http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/1732/imag01561.jpg
>>>
>>> they are from a 92 explorer with a low rpm miss. *It scopes out fine
>>> yet misses. *Replacing these plugs seems to "fix" it for about 5000
>>> miles. *Searching the net suggests the problem is that the fuel
>>> injectors are going bad and running too lean but not lean enough to
>>> set a code. *No codes have popped up. *Over 2000 rpm it runs smooth
>>> right up to redline in any gear.
>>
>>What was the Bosch part # installed? Maybe the wrong plugs are
>>installed as well?
>
>I just started here, so excuse me if this was covered.
>Good point about which plug. In my experience OEM is best.
>Those plugs look oil fouled. Not bad though, and it's running good
>enough to burn off most the oil.
>Could be blowby, could be valve seals.
>For valves seals oil gets sucked in at higher vacuum, backing down on
>speed or idling.
>I had a Ford 352 that would use a quart every 500 miles in local
>driving. Went on a 3000 road trip and didn't use a quart.
>****ed me of because I had completely rebuilt it, but the shop I took
>the heads to screwed up on the valve seals.
>
>Without the miss the plugs may stay clean. Maybe.
>You don't mention miles on the engine.
>I've never had luck pinpointing bad injectors. Just did OHM tests
>though. Always bit the bullet and put all new in.
>'92 is getting long in the tooth. You might want to run a compression
>test before you throw money at it.


It's got 150K on it and never uses any oil no matter how I drive it
and never smokes. Been using Mobile One for the past 5 years. I had
a caprice that developed a similar miss on just one cylinder and when
I pulled that plug out it was filthy and caked with burnt oil
deposits. As you saw in the photos, these plugs are fairly clean, two
of them are almost too clean and the other one looks to me like it's
the one that was missing and getting dirty but still looked a lot
better then back in the old days of leaded gas.

On 05/19/2012 09:11 PM, Ashton Crusher wrote:
> On Thu, 17 May 2012 18:43:59 -0700, jim > wrote:
>
>> On 05/16/2012 09:15 PM, Ashton Crusher wrote:
>>> On Wed, 16 May 2012 19:16:27 -0700, jim > wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 05/16/2012 07:58 AM, Jim Yanik wrote:
>>>> <brevity>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> constant pulling of the plug wires can damage the center
>>>>> conductor/connection,usually at the ends.
>>>>> or there could be an insulation break,allowing your spark energy to go
>>>>> astray,under certain conditions.
>>>>
>>>> indeed.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Or a cheapo dist.cap/rotor could cause problems.
>>>>
>>>> yup. but if it's a rotor, it's usually a problem affecting all
>>>> cylinders, not just one.
>>>
>>>
>>> On this Vehicle, the explorer, there is no distributor, just a
>>> computer and coil pack and pickup coil down by the harmonic balancer.
>>
>> so it could still be a plug lead from the coil pack.
>>
>>
>>> One of the reasons I'm leaning toward the fuel injectors as the
>>> underlying problem is that in the past when I've had ignition system
>>> problems they were the worst at high load/high rpm. In this case the
>>> problem goes away at high load-high rpm.
>>
>> in that case, it's unlikely to be injectors - high load is where issues
>> like blockage or insufficient opening show up the most.
>>
>> ignition voltage requirements are highest for idle and high load, with,
>> i think, idle being the worst. which is consistent with what you've
>> described.
>>
>>
>>> I wonder if what I'm
>>> perceiving as a "Miss" is really knocking from too lean a mixture.
>>
>> i think that if it does away with new plugs, and in just 5k miles, the
>> plugs are as ashed up as they are and starting to miss, your problem is
>> oil fouling. start the motor from cold, run it just enough for the miss
>> to be present, then shut it down and pull the offending plugs. that
>> way, they shouldn't be hot enough to have burned off any oil, and you'll
>> be able to see whether all that black stuff on the plug walls is also
>> present on the plug tip.
>>
>> further thought on re-reading your second post:
>>
>> 1. use ngk plugs if you can get them for this vehicle. while i don't
>> specifically endorse them, i've never had a problem with them, and i
>> have every other plug manufacturer, sooner or later. especially bosch.
>>
>> 2. check out the e.g.r. system. these things tend to coke up and when
>> they do, you get ignition flat spots that lead to hesitation and
>> "misfires".
>>
>> this last doesn't explain why new plugs should help of course, but egr
>> blockage is very common and give drivability problems like you describe.
>
>
> I'll have to check the manual to be sure but I don't think this engine
> has an EGR. The plug wires were new when I put the Bosch plugs in,
> which is less then 10,000 miles. They could still be bad but they are
> not very old. I think they were autozone premium brand, might have
> been bosch.

only bad set of spark plug wires I've ever had were Bosch. '84 VW
Scirocco, decided to give it a tuneup for no better reason than it had a
ton of miles on it. less than 5K miles later, it was running like crap,
dropped it off at shop, they said "your spark plug wires are crap, we
replaced them" and it ran fine ever since. I've driven vehicles with
tattered likely OEM plug wires that ran fine, only set of wires that I
ever had that cause a problem came out of a Bosch box.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On 05/19/2012 09:13 PM, Ashton Crusher wrote:
>
> On Fri, 18 May 2012 10:43:54 -0700 (PDT), m6onz5a
> > wrote:
>
>> On May 17, 9:43 pm, jim > wrote:
>>> On 05/16/2012 09:15 PM, Ashton Crusher wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 16 May 2012 19:16:27 -0700, jim > wrote:
>>>
>>>>> On 05/16/2012 07:58 AM, Jim Yanik wrote:
>>>>> <brevity>
>>>
>>>>>> constant pulling of the plug wires can damage the center
>>>>>> conductor/connection,usually at the ends.
>>>>>> or there could be an insulation break,allowing your spark energy to go
>>>>>> astray,under certain conditions.
>>>
>>>>> indeed.
>>>
>>>>>> Or a cheapo dist.cap/rotor could cause problems.
>>>
>>>>> yup. but if it's a rotor, it's usually a problem affecting all
>>>>> cylinders, not just one.
>>>
>>>> On this Vehicle, the explorer, there is no distributor, just a
>>>> computer and coil pack and pickup coil down by the harmonic balancer.
>>>
>>> so it could still be a plug lead from the coil pack.
>>>
>>>> One of the reasons I'm leaning toward the fuel injectors as the
>>>> underlying problem is that in the past when I've had ignition system
>>>> problems they were the worst at high load/high rpm. In this case the
>>>> problem goes away at high load-high rpm.
>>>
>>> in that case, it's unlikely to be injectors - high load is where issues
>>> like blockage or insufficient opening show up the most.
>>>
>>> ignition voltage requirements are highest for idle and high load, with,
>>> i think, idle being the worst. which is consistent with what you've
>>> described.
>>>
>>>> I wonder if what I'm
>>>> perceiving as a "Miss" is really knocking from too lean a mixture.
>>>
>>> i think that if it does away with new plugs, and in just 5k miles, the
>>> plugs are as ashed up as they are and starting to miss, your problem is
>>> oil fouling. start the motor from cold, run it just enough for the miss
>>> to be present, then shut it down and pull the offending plugs. that
>>> way, they shouldn't be hot enough to have burned off any oil, and you'll
>>> be able to see whether all that black stuff on the plug walls is also
>>> present on the plug tip.
>>>
>>> further thought on re-reading your second post:
>>>
>>> 1. use ngk plugs if you can get them for this vehicle. while i don't
>>> specifically endorse them, i've never had a problem with them, and i
>>> have every other plug manufacturer, sooner or later. especially bosch.
>>>
>>> 2. check out the e.g.r. system. these things tend to coke up and when
>>> they do, you get ignition flat spots that lead to hesitation and
>>> "misfires".
>>>
>>> this last doesn't explain why new plugs should help of course, but egr
>>> blockage is very common and give drivability problems like you describe.
>>>
>>> --
>>> nomina rutrum rutrum- Hide quoted text -
>>>
>>> - Show quoted text -
>>
>> I've actually had a couple of issues with NGK.. Getting carbon stuck
>> in the electrode.. Went back to regular plugs and all is well.
>>
>> I try to sell what originally went in the vehicle.
>>
>> Fords - Autolite / Motocraft
>> GM - AC Delco
>> Chryslers - Champion
>> Euro& Japanese etc NGK& Bosch.
>>
>> Though you can basically use brand plug in any vehicle some plugs just
>> seem to run better in certain vehicles.
>>
>> We have one customer who puts champion in everything, and we have
>> another customer who wouldn't put champion plugs in a row boat.
>
>
> Champion seems to be the "fram" of spark plugs. Most people I've
> talked to don't seem to have much good to say about them.

they're not bad but they have a reputation of not taking kindly to oil
fouling.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel