2008 Kia Optima - Steering Wheel Vibration at speeds over 50mph since

On Nov 1, 3:59*pm, jim beam > wrote:

> if you have roads with a large camber, you will get some drift, even
> with macpherson. *if the car is properly aligned anyway. *what i asked
> was whether you get it when you're driving on a road without camber. *if
> you are, there is an alignment issue. *if not, then what you're
> experiencing on the crowned roads is normal.
>
> --
> nomina rutrum rutrum- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
_______________________
THAT's what I'm talkng about JB! Maybe I'm just not speaking English
here. >smh!<

Of course what I'm talking about is normal - on the crowned roads.
Perhaps I should be using the word "drift" instead of pull here? I
don't really see much difference between them though.
A drift is just a lite version of pull, right?

-CC

On 11/01/2011 01:07 PM, ChrisCoaster wrote:
> On Nov 1, 3:59�pm, jim > wrote:
>
>> if you have roads with a large camber, you will get some drift, even
>> with macpherson. �if the car is properly aligned anyway. �what i asked
>> was whether you get it when you're driving on a road without camber. �if
>> you are, there is an alignment issue. �if not, then what you're
>> experiencing on the crowned roads is normal.
>>
>> --
>> nomina rutrum rutrum- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
> _______________________
> THAT's what I'm talkng about JB! Maybe I'm just not speaking English
> here.>smh!<
>
> Of course what I'm talking about is normal - on the crowned roads.
> Perhaps I should be using the word "drift" instead of pull here? I
> don't really see much difference between them though.
> A drift is just a lite version of pull, right?
>
> -CC

i asked you whether it "drifts", "pulls" or "whatever" on an uncrowned
road. maybe /i/ don't understand english because i still can't see that
you responded to that.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

On Nov 1, 3:59*pm, jim beam > wrote:

>
> they don't attempt to compensate for it.


> nomina rutrum rutrum- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
___________________
Can you prove that? I just stated above that all it takes is for left
to right caster and or camber to be different by 1/4 degree and the
car will start to drift to whatever side you want it to.
Also, I did state that every car I drove after that '81 Buick drifted
or pulled(as in the case of the '05 malibu) to the left. If I have to
exert the steering wheel to the right constantly, then the car must be
"trending" toward the left.

As far as "pull" or "drift" are concerned, my present 2008 Kia DRIFTs
ever so slowly to the right when I let go of the steering wheel. IOW,
it performs as I expect any car driven in the United States to.

-CC

On Nov 1, 4:30*pm, jim beam > wrote:
> On 11/01/2011 01:07 PM, ChrisCoaster wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Nov 1, 3:59 pm, jim > *wrote:
>
> >> if you have roads with a large camber, you will get some drift, even
> >> with macpherson. if the car is properly aligned anyway. what i asked
> >> was whether you get it when you're driving on a road without camber. if
> >> you are, there is an alignment issue. if not, then what you're
> >> experiencing on the crowned roads is normal.
>
> >> --
> >> nomina rutrum rutrum- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
> > _______________________
> > THAT's what I'm talkng about JB! Maybe I'm just not speaking English
> > here.>smh!<
>
> > Of course what I'm talking about is normal - on the crowned roads.
> > Perhaps I should be using the word "drift" instead of pull here? *I
> > don't really see much difference between them though.
> > A drift is just a lite version of pull, right?
>
> > -CC
>
> i asked you whether it "drifts", "pulls" or "whatever" on an uncrowned
> road. *maybe /i/ don't understand english because i still can't see that
> you responded to that.
>
> --
> nomina rutrum rutrum- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
_________________
If you are viewing this via Google Newsgroups then you are probably
waiting an eternity for my replies as I am for yours.

-CC

On 11/01/2011 02:01 PM, ChrisCoaster wrote:
> On Nov 1, 3:59�pm, jim > wrote:
>
>>
>> they don't attempt to compensate for it.
>
>
>> nomina rutrum rutrum- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
> ___________________
> Can you prove that? I just stated above that all it takes is for left
> to right caster and or camber to be different by 1/4 degree and the
> car will start to drift to whatever side you want it to.
> Also, I did state that every car I drove after that '81 Buick drifted
> or pulled(as in the case of the '05 malibu) to the left. If I have to
> exert the steering wheel to the right constantly, then the car must be
> "trending" toward the left.
>
> As far as "pull" or "drift" are concerned, my present 2008 Kia DRIFTs
> ever so slowly to the right when I let go of the steering wheel. IOW,
> it performs as I expect any car driven in the United States to.
>
> -CC

no, only cars with defective alignments, defective tires, high side
winds or those being driven on extreme cambers drift. all correctly
aligned vehicles with good tires, without environmental influence, drive
in a dead straight line.

if you were told otherwise, it's because you're the kind of person the
average shop has no time for and they just want to get rid of you.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

On 11/01/2011 02:03 PM, ChrisCoaster wrote:
> On Nov 1, 4:30�pm, jim > wrote:
>> On 11/01/2011 01:07 PM, ChrisCoaster wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Nov 1, 3:59 pm, jim > �wrote:
>>
>>>> if you have roads with a large camber, you will get some drift, even
>>>> with macpherson. if the car is properly aligned anyway. what i asked
>>>> was whether you get it when you're driving on a road without camber. if
>>>> you are, there is an alignment issue. if not, then what you're
>>>> experiencing on the crowned roads is normal.
>>
>>>> --
>>>> nomina rutrum rutrum- Hide quoted text -
>>
>>>> - Show quoted text -
>>> _______________________
>>> THAT's what I'm talkng about JB! Maybe I'm just not speaking English
>>> here.>smh!<
>>
>>> Of course what I'm talking about is normal - on the crowned roads.
>>> Perhaps I should be using the word "drift" instead of pull here? �I
>>> don't really see much difference between them though.
>>> A drift is just a lite version of pull, right?
>>
>>> -CC
>>
>> i asked you whether it "drifts", "pulls" or "whatever" on an uncrowned
>> road. �maybe /i/ don't understand english because i still can't see that
>> you responded to that.
>>
>> --
>> nomina rutrum rutrum- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
> _________________
> If you are viewing this via Google Newsgroups then you are probably
> waiting an eternity for my replies as I am for yours.
>
> -CC

no chris, what you're experiencing is perfectly normal for people like
you. now see my other reply and get out of my shop.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

On Nov 1, 5:12*pm, jim beam > wrote:
> On 11/01/2011 02:01 PM, ChrisCoaster wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Nov 1, 3:59 pm, jim > *wrote:
>
> >> they don't attempt to compensate for it.
>
> >> nomina rutrum rutrum- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
> > ___________________
> > Can you prove that? *I just stated above that all it takes is for left
> > to right caster and or camber to be different by 1/4 degree and the
> > car will start to drift to whatever side you want it to.
> > Also, I did state that every car I drove after that '81 Buick drifted
> > or pulled(as in the case of the '05 malibu) to the left. *If I have to
> > exert the steering wheel to the right constantly, then the car must be
> > "trending" toward the left.
>
> > As far as "pull" or "drift" are concerned, my present 2008 Kia DRIFTs
> > ever so slowly to the right when I let go of the steering wheel. IOW,
> > it performs as I expect any car driven in the United States to.
>
> > -CC
>
> no, only cars with defective alignments, defective tires, high side
> winds or those being driven on extreme cambers drift. *all correctly
> aligned vehicles with good tires, without environmental influence, drive
> in a dead straight line.
>
> if you were told otherwise, it's because you're the kind of person the
> average shop has no time for and they just want to get rid of you.
>
> --
> nomina rutrum rutrum- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
____________________
Nobody told me anything. It's my own experience that guides me.
Empirical observation - if that still counts for something.
Unfortunately the only "environmental" factor you can neither
eliminate nor ignore is the road surface itself. And vehicle mfgs are
compensating - slightly - for road crown, and failing miserably at it.
I don't believe that every new car I've driven is defective, or it's
tires, or setup, etc.

Another factor we both missed out on here is transport. New vehicles
are usually strapped to at least one transporter between the factory
and the ship(if overseas) and between the delivery point to the dealer
where the customer takes possession. I've heard horror stories of
cars being strapped down so tight to the truck bed that the tie rod
ends are potentially bent and the camber f__ked.

I'm a schooled man, JB, self-schooled in common sense. And as far as
for my own compensating for road crown, I'm not talking a whole lot
here, just about 1/2" to 1" to the left, depending on what street it
is. If I'm holding the wheel so the logo on it is tilted 45 or 90
degrees then maybe that car should be on a rack instead of on the
road. That's not my case. Does that clear things up a little?

-CC

On 11/01/2011 02:25 PM, ChrisCoaster wrote:
> On Nov 1, 5:12�pm, jim > wrote:
>> On 11/01/2011 02:01 PM, ChrisCoaster wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Nov 1, 3:59 pm, jim > �wrote:
>>
>>>> they don't attempt to compensate for it.
>>
>>>> nomina rutrum rutrum- Hide quoted text -
>>
>>>> - Show quoted text -
>>> ___________________
>>> Can you prove that? �I just stated above that all it takes is for left
>>> to right caster and or camber to be different by 1/4 degree and the
>>> car will start to drift to whatever side you want it to.
>>> Also, I did state that every car I drove after that '81 Buick drifted
>>> or pulled(as in the case of the '05 malibu) to the left. �If I have to
>>> exert the steering wheel to the right constantly, then the car must be
>>> "trending" toward the left.
>>
>>> As far as "pull" or "drift" are concerned, my present 2008 Kia DRIFTs
>>> ever so slowly to the right when I let go of the steering wheel. IOW,
>>> it performs as I expect any car driven in the United States to.
>>
>>> -CC
>>
>> no, only cars with defective alignments, defective tires, high side
>> winds or those being driven on extreme cambers drift. �all correctly
>> aligned vehicles with good tires, without environmental influence, drive
>> in a dead straight line.
>>
>> if you were told otherwise, it's because you're the kind of person the
>> average shop has no time for and they just want to get rid of you.
>>
>> --
>> nomina rutrum rutrum- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
> ____________________
> Nobody told me anything. It's my own experience that guides me.
> Empirical observation - if that still counts for something.
> Unfortunately the only "environmental" factor you can neither
> eliminate nor ignore is the road surface itself. And vehicle mfgs are
> compensating - slightly - for road crown, and failing miserably at it.
> I don't believe that every new car I've driven is defective, or it's
> tires, or setup, etc.
>
> Another factor we both missed out on here is transport. New vehicles
> are usually strapped to at least one transporter between the factory
> and the ship(if overseas) and between the delivery point to the dealer
> where the customer takes possession. I've heard horror stories of
> cars being strapped down so tight to the truck bed that the tie rod
> ends are potentially bent and the camber f__ked.
>
> I'm a schooled man, JB, self-schooled in common sense. And as far as
> for my own compensating for road crown, I'm not talking a whole lot
> here, just about 1/2" to 1" to the left, depending on what street it
> is. If I'm holding the wheel so the logo on it is tilted 45 or 90
> degrees then maybe that car should be on a rack instead of on the
> road. That's not my case. Does that clear things up a little?
>
> -CC
>

manufacturers do not "compensate" for road crown. their cars get
shipped all over the country, including states with freeways and flat
roads. and because it's retarded.

yes, some vehicles can be damaged in transport, or the dealer's lot by
kiddies hot-rodding. but that only explains a few.

however, after dags, it does appear that some dealers re-align cars as
part of "dealer prep". indeed, looking back on it, i've experienced
this back on some new cars i've test driven. i didn't realize it at the
time - i just thought they'd been damaged in transport. all i can tell
you is that this must be some kind of practice left over from the days
of bias ply tires, solid axles and pre-dating freeways - they should NOT
be doing it. unless you have race mods, alignment should be set at or
close to factory, and in the straight-ahead position.

i suggest you take the vehicle to a shop that has a good quality modern
alignment rig and tell them you want the vehicle set without this
"feature". i forget the names, but i think hunter make machines that
are pretty much impossible for technicians to screw up. if you go to a
big chain like sears, i think you have the twin advantages of both the
modern machine and a fear of lawsuits so they won't set to anything
other than factory unless you instruct them otherwise and sign a waiver.


--
nomina rutrum rutrum

On Nov 1, 10:24*pm, jim beam > wrote:
> On 11/01/2011 02:25 PM, ChrisCoaster wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Nov 1, 5:12 pm, jim > *wrote:
> >> On 11/01/2011 02:01 PM, ChrisCoaster wrote:
>
> >>> On Nov 1, 3:59 pm, jim > * wrote:
>
> >>>> they don't attempt to compensate for it.
>
> >>>> nomina rutrum rutrum- Hide quoted text -
>
> >>>> - Show quoted text -
> >>> ___________________
> >>> Can you prove that? I just stated above that all it takes is for left
> >>> to right caster and or camber to be different by 1/4 degree and the
> >>> car will start to drift to whatever side you want it to.
> >>> Also, I did state that every car I drove after that '81 Buick drifted
> >>> or pulled(as in the case of the '05 malibu) to the left. If I have to
> >>> exert the steering wheel to the right constantly, then the car must be
> >>> "trending" toward the left.
>
> >>> As far as "pull" or "drift" are concerned, my present 2008 Kia DRIFTs
> >>> ever so slowly to the right when I let go of the steering wheel. IOW,
> >>> it performs as I expect any car driven in the United States to.
>
> >>> -CC
>
> >> no, only cars with defective alignments, defective tires, high side
> >> winds or those being driven on extreme cambers drift. all correctly
> >> aligned vehicles with good tires, without environmental influence, drive
> >> in a dead straight line.
>
> >> if you were told otherwise, it's because you're the kind of person the
> >> average shop has no time for and they just want to get rid of you.
>
> >> --
> >> nomina rutrum rutrum- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
> > ____________________
> > Nobody told me anything. *It's my own experience that guides me.
> > Empirical observation - if that still counts for something.
> > Unfortunately the only "environmental" factor you can neither
> > eliminate nor ignore is the road surface itself. *And vehicle mfgs are
> > compensating - slightly - for road crown, and failing miserably at it.
> > I don't believe that every new car I've driven is defective, or it's
> > tires, or setup, etc.
>
> > Another factor we both missed out on here is transport. *New vehicles
> > are usually strapped to at least one transporter between the factory
> > and the ship(if overseas) and between the delivery point to the dealer
> > where the customer takes possession. *I've heard horror stories of
> > cars being strapped down so tight to the truck bed that the tie rod
> > ends are potentially bent and the camber f__ked.
>
> > I'm a schooled man, JB, self-schooled in common sense. *And as far as
> > for my own compensating for road crown, I'm not talking a whole lot
> > here, just about 1/2" to 1" to the left, depending on what street it
> > is. *If I'm holding the wheel so the logo on it is tilted 45 or 90
> > degrees then maybe that car should be on a rack instead of on the
> > road. *That's not my case. *Does that clear things up a little?
>
> > -CC
>
> manufacturers do not "compensate" for road crown. *their cars get
> shipped all over the country, including states with freeways and flat
> roads. *and because it's retarded.
>
> yes, some vehicles can be damaged in transport, or the dealer's lot by
> kiddies hot-rodding. *but that only explains a few.
>
> however, after dags, it does appear that some dealers re-align cars as
> part of "dealer prep". *indeed, looking back on it, i've experienced
> this back on some new cars i've test driven. *i didn't realize it at the
> time - i just thought they'd been damaged in transport. *all i can tell
> you is that this must be some kind of practice left over from the days
> of bias ply tires, solid axles and pre-dating freeways - they should NOT
> be doing it. *unless you have race mods, alignment should be set at or
> close to factory, and in the straight-ahead position.
>
> i suggest you take the vehicle to a shop that has a good quality modern
> alignment rig and tell them you want the vehicle set without this
> "feature". *i forget the names, but i think hunter make machines that
> are pretty much impossible for technicians to screw up. *if you go to a
> big chain like sears, i think you have the twin advantages of both the
> modern machine and a fear of lawsuits so they won't set to anything
> other than factory unless you instruct them otherwise and sign a waiver.
>
> --
> nomina rutrum rutrum- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
__________________________
I have told you in a thousand ways the vehicle drives fine but you
still seem to think something's wrong with it. I can live with a
right rear that's a 1/2degree outside the spec window for negative
camber. Most BMWs I'm followng down the street look to have at least
-2 to -3deg negative camber in their rear ends, so I'm not too worried
about it. If you want to keep your head in the sand about factory
compensation for road crown, who am I to stop you? At least you're
comfortable in there. You still haven't provided proof that they
don't, and I've provided proof that they at least *might*, based on
what I've driven and how I have to steer to compensate.

If I want to someday I will spend another $1000-1500 diagnosing and
repairing that right rear, but so far it's had no negative impact on
the Kia's handling.

Hoping your news is good news,
-CC

On 11/01/2011 08:06 PM, ChrisCoaster wrote:
> On Nov 1, 10:24�pm, jim > wrote:
>> On 11/01/2011 02:25 PM, ChrisCoaster wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Nov 1, 5:12 pm, jim > �wrote:
>>>> On 11/01/2011 02:01 PM, ChrisCoaster wrote:
>>
>>>>> On Nov 1, 3:59 pm, jim > � wrote:
>>
>>>>>> they don't attempt to compensate for it.
>>
>>>>>> nomina rutrum rutrum- Hide quoted text -
>>
>>>>>> - Show quoted text -
>>>>> ___________________
>>>>> Can you prove that? I just stated above that all it takes is for left
>>>>> to right caster and or camber to be different by 1/4 degree and the
>>>>> car will start to drift to whatever side you want it to.
>>>>> Also, I did state that every car I drove after that '81 Buick drifted
>>>>> or pulled(as in the case of the '05 malibu) to the left. If I have to
>>>>> exert the steering wheel to the right constantly, then the car must be
>>>>> "trending" toward the left.
>>
>>>>> As far as "pull" or "drift" are concerned, my present 2008 Kia DRIFTs
>>>>> ever so slowly to the right when I let go of the steering wheel. IOW,
>>>>> it performs as I expect any car driven in the United States to.
>>
>>>>> -CC
>>
>>>> no, only cars with defective alignments, defective tires, high side
>>>> winds or those being driven on extreme cambers drift. all correctly
>>>> aligned vehicles with good tires, without environmental influence, drive
>>>> in a dead straight line.
>>
>>>> if you were told otherwise, it's because you're the kind of person the
>>>> average shop has no time for and they just want to get rid of you.
>>
>>>> --
>>>> nomina rutrum rutrum- Hide quoted text -
>>
>>>> - Show quoted text -
>>> ____________________
>>> Nobody told me anything. �It's my own experience that guides me.
>>> Empirical observation - if that still counts for something.
>>> Unfortunately the only "environmental" factor you can neither
>>> eliminate nor ignore is the road surface itself. �And vehicle mfgs are
>>> compensating - slightly - for road crown, and failing miserably at it.
>>> I don't believe that every new car I've driven is defective, or it's
>>> tires, or setup, etc.
>>
>>> Another factor we both missed out on here is transport. �New vehicles
>>> are usually strapped to at least one transporter between the factory
>>> and the ship(if overseas) and between the delivery point to the dealer
>>> where the customer takes possession. �I've heard horror stories of
>>> cars being strapped down so tight to the truck bed that the tie rod
>>> ends are potentially bent and the camber f__ked.
>>
>>> I'm a schooled man, JB, self-schooled in common sense. �And as far as
>>> for my own compensating for road crown, I'm not talking a whole lot
>>> here, just about 1/2" to 1" to the left, depending on what street it
>>> is. �If I'm holding the wheel so the logo on it is tilted 45 or 90
>>> degrees then maybe that car should be on a rack instead of on the
>>> road. �That's not my case. �Does that clear things up a little?
>>
>>> -CC
>>
>> manufacturers do not "compensate" for road crown. �their cars get
>> shipped all over the country, including states with freeways and flat
>> roads. �and because it's retarded.
>>
>> yes, some vehicles can be damaged in transport, or the dealer's lot by
>> kiddies hot-rodding. �but that only explains a few.
>>
>> however, after dags, it does appear that some dealers re-align cars as
>> part of "dealer prep". �indeed, looking back on it, i've experienced
>> this back on some new cars i've test driven. �i didn't realize it at the
>> time - i just thought they'd been damaged in transport. �all i can tell
>> you is that this must be some kind of practice left over from the days
>> of bias ply tires, solid axles and pre-dating freeways - they should NOT
>> be doing it. �unless you have race mods, alignment should be set at or
>> close to factory, and in the straight-ahead position.
>>
>> i suggest you take the vehicle to a shop that has a good quality modern
>> alignment rig and tell them you want the vehicle set without this
>> "feature". �i forget the names, but i think hunter make machines that
>> are pretty much impossible for technicians to screw up. �if you go to a
>> big chain like sears, i think you have the twin advantages of both the
>> modern machine and a fear of lawsuits so they won't set to anything
>> other than factory unless you instruct them otherwise and sign a waiver.
>>
>> --
>> nomina rutrum rutrum- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
> __________________________
> I have told you in a thousand ways the vehicle drives fine but you
> still seem to think something's wrong with it.

you said it handles like a buick - if that's not a problem, you've lost me.


> I can live with a
> right rear that's a 1/2degree outside the spec window for negative
> camber. Most BMWs I'm followng down the street look to have at least
> -2 to -3deg negative camber in their rear ends, so I'm not too worried
> about it. If you want to keep your head in the sand about factory
> compensation for road crown, who am I to stop you?

factory doesn't "compensate". "compensation" seems to be some weird
aftermarket anachronism from rural communities where they don't have
freeways.


> At least you're
> comfortable in there. You still haven't provided proof that they
> don't, and I've provided proof that they at least *might*, based on
> what I've driven and how I have to steer to compensate.

look up some factory alignment specs. i've already said you can get
this from shop manuals or alldata.


>
> If I want to someday I will spend another $1000-1500 diagnosing and
> repairing that right rear, but so far it's had no negative impact on
> the Kia's handling.

if a car that pulls to one side of its own accord is "no negative
impact", then we're wasting each others time.


>
> Hoping your news is good news,
> -CC


--
nomina rutrum rutrum