Replacing front tires

Nate Nagel wrote:
> gpsman wrote:
> > Floyd Rogers wrote:
> >
> >>"Bill Funk" > wrote
> >>
> >>> (Brent P) wrote:
> >>
> >>>>If you had better tires on the front than the rear, the rear would float
> >>>>and swing around.
> >>>
> >>>A completely unsupported assumption.
> >>
> >>Actually, COMPLETELY supported:
> >>http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tirete....jsp?techid=52
> >
> >
> > I don't think constant radius wet skidpad testing transfers directly to
> > real world hydroplaning.
> >
> > I suspect they weren't even sure the loss of the rear tires traction
> > was due to "hydroplaning", but jumped to that conclusion. Since the
> > rear wheels don't steer the loss of traction in hard cornering is more
> > likely attrbutable to simply exceeding the available lateral traction
> > of the rear tires on wet pavement, IMO.
> >
> > The Tire Rack team includes not a single shred of data in their report;
> > not the vehicle, not the tires or their tread depths, not the velocity
> > at the point of "hydroplaning", absolutely nothing but assumption,
> > opinion and wags, AFAICT.
> >
> > I find that report completely and utterly useless.

>
> So in exactly what way does that NOT translate to on-road safety?

Most people don't drive in circles and accelerate looking for the point
where traction is lost? And I would guess that most people would not
encounter those lateral G's (whatever they were, who knows?) at
hydroplane velocities

But there's more and better (duh), if not great, evidence that I might
be wrong.

http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/pw/laurens.htm (Them's got
pichurs, altho they fail to mention in which position the tire is
mounted when photographed).

And http://www.michelinman.com/care/tip6.html with a video I haven't
watched yet,
-----

- gpsman

In article >, Bill Funk wrote:

> It's unsupported because you're trying to use math to to show what can
> happen (IF* the rear tires float; it's been said by myself and opthers
> that it's more likely for the fronts to float, because the rears enter
> water that's already been moved and disturbed by the front tires.
> I understand what happens if the rears come loose; you seem to be
> missing the situation that's being discussed.

No, it's been said by just you. Ya know what, go put your better tires
on the front, go knock yourself out. It's your vehicle, it's your life.

Put tires with less traction ability on the rear, see what
happens to you. Just don't kill anyone else or bend up their vehicles
when you spin.

>>Wipes or no, the rear can still break loose and come around.

> Of course it can. But it's much more likely the fronts will float
> before the rears do, so the better tires should go on the front.

I am going to play you, where is your cited support? Oh that's right
only I have to cite my views.

What percentage less water do rears have to face? What about when you
turn or change lanes when your rears aren't following in wipes exactly?

In article >, Bill Funk wrote:

> On a continuous curve pad.
> Not many street situations are such; most driving is straight, where
> the fronts will wipe the rear tire track.

You never turn on the street? Never change lanes?

In article >, Bill Funk wrote:

>> When the fronts float, there's NO steering; not just understeer.
>>When you put worn tires
>>on the rear, you get oversteer, in ALL conditions, even dry.

> Hardly.
> Most people never get anywhere near the limits of even worn tires.

Drive a mustang in the snow sometime. Let me know if you find the limits
of worn tires.

"Bill Funk" > wrote
> On Tue, 5 Sep 2006 13:26:53 -0700, "Floyd Rogers" wrote:
>>"Bill Funk" > wrote
>>> (Brent P) wrote:
>>>>If you had better tires on the front than the rear, the rear would float
>>>>and swing around.
>>>
>>> A completely unsupported assumption.
>>
>>Actually, COMPLETELY supported:
>>http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tirete....jsp?techid=52

You have posted nothing to support your position. You lose.

> On a continuous curve pad.
> Not many street situations are such; most driving is straight, where
> the fronts will wipe the rear tire track.

Too bad that front and rear track widths negate some of the wipe,
that tires don't really "wipe" it anyway - all-season tires are required
to have 25% empty space. Too bad that you haven't driven an
Acura NSX with legal but well-worn rear tires in the rain and
experienced oversteer conditions due to hydroplaning.

Too bad that everything you've said is utter tripe and contrary
to what every expert says.

FloydR

Brent P wrote:

> Put tires with less traction ability on the rear, see what
> happens to you. Just don't kill anyone else or bend up their vehicles
> when you spin.

It's *doubly important* to have grippy tyres on the rear of a FWD car because of
the issues of lack of control that occur if the rear 'steps out' !

It is not by any means about the rear tyres just 'following around' at all.

Graham

Bill Funk wrote:
> On Tue, 05 Sep 2006 19:23:03 -0400, Nate Nagel >
> wrote:
>
>> So in exactly what way does that NOT translate to on-road safety?
>> Again, for most drivers, understeer is safer.
>
> When the fronts float, there's NO steering; not just understeer.

That is understeer, unless you're not trying to turn. Most untrained
drivers instinctively let off the throttle when it happens. Since that
results in loss of speed as well as some degree of weight transition to
the front, the front tires regain traction.

Nate Nagel wrote:
> Definitely do not turn the steering wheel as you don't want to unsettle
> the car when traction comes back.

What about straightening it out?

Arif Khokar wrote:
> Nate Nagel wrote:
>
>> Definitely do not turn the steering wheel as you don't want to
>> unsettle the car when traction comes back.
>
>
> What about straightening it out?

I guess I was assuming that the hydroplaning was ocurring on a
straightaway, since the OP was here to ask us about it

nate

--
replace "fly" with "com" to reply.
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Bill Funk wrote:
>
> On Tue, 5 Sep 2006 13:26:53 -0700, "Floyd Rogers"
> > wrote:
>
> >"Bill Funk" > wrote
> >> (Brent P) wrote:
> >
> >>>If you had better tires on the front than the rear, the rear would float
> >>>and swing around.
> >>
> >> A completely unsupported assumption.
> >
> >Actually, COMPLETELY supported:
> >http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tirete....jsp?techid=52
> >
> >FloydR
> >
>
> On a continuous curve pad.
> Not many street situations are such; most driving is straight, where
> the fronts will wipe the rear tire track.
>
> --
> Bill Funk
> replace "g" with "a"

You have obviously never driven a front wheel drive car in snow or ice.

Roads do curve and bald/low tread rear tires 'will' float out faster
than you can blink.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
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