brake problems on 74 super beetle

I'm having some problems on a 74 Super that we purchased a few months
back. The brake pedal drops down quite far before any braking action
happens. So far I've adjusted the brakes, and bled the brakes. This
seemed to help a little bit, but still having the problem. Also when I
tried bleeding the left front, I couldn't get any brake fluid to come
out, even though the reservoir was full. Any suggestions? I'm thinking
I have to replace the master cylinder and probably the hoses as well.
Thanks!

-John

halcyonic88 wrote:

> I'm having some problems on a 74 Super that we purchased a few months
> back. The brake pedal drops down quite far before any braking action
> happens. So far I've adjusted the brakes, and bled the brakes. This
> seemed to help a little bit, but still having the problem. Also when I
> tried bleeding the left front, I couldn't get any brake fluid to come
> out, even though the reservoir was full. Any suggestions? I'm thinking
> I have to replace the master cylinder and probably the hoses as well.
> Thanks!
>
> -John
>
You may be right. After 30 yrs, the rubber hoses swell up
inside and block fluid.

The shoes may be worn to the limit as well. And...are the
wheel cyls 30 yrs old as well??

The M/C is a b***h to replace without pulling the gas tank
but it can be done with the left frt wheel off.

Carefully inspect *all* the steel lines as well, especially
the rear line where it runs underneath the pedal cluster.
These often rust out in that spot.

See Rob and Dave's pages for the Brake repair section:
http://www.vw-resource.com/table.html

You'll want to have a good shop manual (if you don't have one already).

--

Speedy Jim
http://www.nls.net/mp/volks/

Speedy Jim wrote:
> halcyonic88 wrote:
>
> > I'm having some problems on a 74 Super that we purchased a few months
> > back. The brake pedal drops down quite far before any braking action
> > happens. So far I've adjusted the brakes, and bled the brakes. This
> > seemed to help a little bit, but still having the problem. Also when I
> > tried bleeding the left front, I couldn't get any brake fluid to come
> > out, even though the reservoir was full. Any suggestions? I'm thinking
> > I have to replace the master cylinder and probably the hoses as well.
> > Thanks!
> >
> > -John
> >
> You may be right. After 30 yrs, the rubber hoses swell up
> inside and block fluid.
>
> The shoes may be worn to the limit as well. And...are the
> wheel cyls 30 yrs old as well??
>
> The M/C is a b***h to replace without pulling the gas tank
> but it can be done with the left frt wheel off.
>
> Carefully inspect *all* the steel lines as well, especially
> the rear line where it runs underneath the pedal cluster.
> These often rust out in that spot.
>
> See Rob and Dave's pages for the Brake repair section:
> http://www.vw-resource.com/table.html
>
> You'll want to have a good shop manual (if you don't have one already).
>
> --
>
> Speedy Jim
> http://www.nls.net/mp/volks/

What he said!

But really. Try hoses if you know you have good wheel cylinders and
brake shoes. Ther aren't that hard to change and usually solve the
problem. If I remember right, you can get a whole set from
Aircooled.net for about $25 plus shipping. Go to the master cylinder
last because it's such a pain to do.

Peace,
<><
TC

"Speedy Jim" wrote in message...
>
> See Rob and Dave's pages for the Brake repair section:
> http://www.vw-resource.com/table.html
>
The brake info on that site, as it relates to the pushrod, is not good.
This is not to criticise the sites authors as they are taking advice on the
matter. However, it comes across that the pushrod can be used as a means to
adjust the free-play. When the foot pedals are first set-up, in any Bug,
the pushrod would be the last part to be fitted and set so that there is the
correct free-play. Afterwards, the free-play should only be re-set by
adjusting the entire pedal assembly, LHD or RHD. I imagine that many cars
have had the pushrod 'messed with' over the years, which means that these
'many' cars should have the brake pedals re-aligned to ensure that the brake
pedal has the full 'emergency' deflection, it needs.

On 16 Jul 2005 11:04:04 -0700 "halcyonic88" >
wrote:

>I'm having some problems on a 74 Super that we purchased a few months
>back. The brake pedal drops down quite far before any braking action
>happens. So far I've adjusted the brakes, and bled the brakes. This
>seemed to help a little bit, but still having the problem. Also when I
>tried bleeding the left front, I couldn't get any brake fluid to come
>out, even though the reservoir was full. Any suggestions? I'm thinking
>I have to replace the master cylinder and probably the hoses as well.

It's probably NOT the MC. It is probably the rubber hose to the LF
wheel.

Take the bleed valve all the way out. Does fluid come out the hole? If
so, the hole in the bleed valve is just clogged with dirt and you can
clean it out.

If no fluid comes out that hole, just take apart hose joints working
your way back from the LF wheel toward the MC. When you get fluid,
you'll know that you've just passed the blockage.

On a car this old, you should flush clean, fresh brake fluid thru
everything until it comes out clean. If you have the skills, take the
wheel cylinders apart and hone them, which can be done ON the car.

You can hone the MC, too, but as others have said, it's much more work
to get to.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 23:57:35 -0400 "Peter"
> wrote:

>"Speedy Jim" wrote in message...
>>
>> See Rob and Dave's pages for the Brake repair section:
>> http://www.vw-resource.com/table.html
>>
>The brake info on that site, as it relates to the pushrod, is not good.
>This is not to criticise the sites authors as they are taking advice on the
>matter. However, it comes across that the pushrod can be used as a means to
>adjust the free-play. When the foot pedals are first set-up, in any Bug,
>the pushrod would be the last part to be fitted and set so that there is the
>correct free-play. Afterwards, the free-play should only be re-set by
>adjusting the entire pedal assembly, LHD or RHD. I imagine that many cars
>have had the pushrod 'messed with' over the years, which means that these
>'many' cars should have the brake pedals re-aligned to ensure that the brake
>pedal has the full 'emergency' deflection, it needs.

This is very good advice, and it's good to see that there are others
out there who understand this.

The MC pushrod should almost never be adjusted. The only exception
would be in the case where it becomes clear that someone has already
messed with the original factory setting.

There is a gauge which you can make, which allows you to reproduce the
original setting, but I don't know ANYONE who has one of them. I have
the print for it, but I haven't bothered to make it, yet.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

"Jim Adney" wrote in message...
>
> There is a gauge which you can make, which allows you to reproduce the
> original setting, but I don't know ANYONE who has one of them. I have
> the print for it, but I haven't bothered to make it, yet.
>
How does this gauge work? Is it something that can be easily explained?

On Sun, 17 Jul 2005 22:09:38 -0400 "Peter"
> wrote:

>"Jim Adney" wrote in message...
>>
>> There is a gauge which you can make, which allows you to reproduce the
>> original setting, but I don't know ANYONE who has one of them. I have
>> the print for it, but I haven't bothered to make it, yet.
>>
>How does this gauge work? Is it something that can be easily explained?

This is a little hard to describe, but I'll try.

It's a sector of a circle, cut out of heavy sheet metal. At the
"center" of the circle, a small circular "bite" has been taken out
which is about 1" diameter, or whatever fits nicely around the brake
pedal hub. The sector fits down there and extends upward between the
backside of the pedal and the firewall.

You adjust the pushrod to just contact the MC when this template is
captured between the backside of the pedal and the firewall, thus
ensuring that the design amount of space is available for the pedal
stroke.

This compensates for tolerance buildup between the pan and body parts,
and the assembly tolerances when bolting them together.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

"Jim Adney" wrote in message...
>
> This is a little hard to describe, but I'll try......

Thank you, I understood perfectly. So much so, that I went through all my
stuff and eventually found the same gauge spec sheet, as you describe. It
is interesting that there is an up-rated version for mid-69 and later Bugs,
which may be due to body work changes. The manual mentions that an extra
depression in the bodywork was made, for the 71 models to allow the slightly
taller pedals to have the permissible travel.

According to the VW pedal specifications, the brake pedal should have a
minimum travel of 190mm. Bentley states 200mm and the gauge 'appears' to
provide even more (205 and 220mm). The simplest way to check (IMO) is to
remove the pushrod and simply measure the pedal travel.

VW's wording (although not wrong) of the pushrod length having been "factory
adjusted" or "the factory has set the length" has caused confusion. It has
been assumed that there is a universal specific length for the pushrod, of
which the dimension remains a well kept secret (VW's '7X'). What they
should have made clear, was that each and every pushrod has been adjusted to
suit each and every individual vehicle. This is why the rod was made
adjustable, as otherwise, it would have been a cheaper 'fixed' length
component.

Peter or Jim

Am very interested in the "gauge" can either of you point me to where
it is in literature or please send me scan/image.
thanks
Grahame
from Aus

"Peter" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jim Adney" wrote in message...
> >
> > This is a little hard to describe, but I'll try......
>
> Thank you, I understood perfectly. So much so, that I went through all my
> stuff and eventually found the same gauge spec sheet, as you describe. It
> is interesting that there is an up-rated version for mid-69 and later
Bugs,
> which may be due to body work changes. The manual mentions that an extra
> depression in the bodywork was made, for the 71 models to allow the
slightly
> taller pedals to have the permissible travel.
>
> According to the VW pedal specifications, the brake pedal should have a
> minimum travel of 190mm. Bentley states 200mm and the gauge 'appears' to
> provide even more (205 and 220mm). The simplest way to check (IMO) is to
> remove the pushrod and simply measure the pedal travel.
>
> VW's wording (although not wrong) of the pushrod length having been
"factory
> adjusted" or "the factory has set the length" has caused confusion. It
has
> been assumed that there is a universal specific length for the pushrod, of
> which the dimension remains a well kept secret (VW's '7X'). What they
> should have made clear, was that each and every pushrod has been adjusted
to
> suit each and every individual vehicle. This is why the rod was made
> adjustable, as otherwise, it would have been a cheaper 'fixed' length
> component.
>
>