Air Bag Deploys At WrongTime.

On Sat, 21 May 2011 23:01:17 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski"
> wrote:

>
>"Brent" > wrote
>> Airbags are explosives. The fail condition for anything that can
>> explode should be not to explode when put into a consumer product. It
>> doesn't matter that an intermittent warning light was ignored, failure
>> should mean not exploding. There is a glaring error in the FMEA process
>> with that car.
>>
>
>First, we know the airbag went off, but we do no know what failed and why.
>The airbag is explosive and may not have failed at all, but the sensor or
>relay, or other triggering device may have failed, this telling the airbag
>to do what it is intended to do. Was anything tampered with? Modified?
>Bumper in a crash of any sort?
>

Nope, none of that.

>The only thing we know for certain is the car owner chose to ignore a
>warning. Given that it was MONTHS of warning, the fault lies with him. If
>you know a bomb is going to go off when the counter gets to zero, you are a
>fool to stand by when you have time to get out or do something.
>

Nope, I said a month or so. But he's not sure.
Just knows it was intermittent, and it stopped.
Not clear on the bulb burning out. He's not sure it burned out.
I'll know more later.
Now, here's something to consider.
I'm supposing this from doing google searches.
There are thousands of people driving with airbag warning lights
flashing or constantly on.
Couldn't find one whose warning lights are flashing where the airbag
deployed for no apparent reason.
Why> Because the warning means the system is disabled and your
airbags won't deploy.
That's why they want you to bring the car in.
And getting it fixed can be very expensive.
That's why people often don't take them in to the dealer.
But I found plenty of cases where there WAS NO WARNING LIGHT
and the airbag deployed for no apparent reason.
So all your speculation and finger pointing means exactly squat.

>If your smoke detector goes off in the middle of the night, would you ignore
>it? When the low oil light goes on do you ignore it? Brake failure light?
>There are consequences to the actions, or lack thereof, and no one else to
>blame.
>

What's with all this blame crap? You on a religious kick?
The kid doesn't take of deny blame.
He's just ****ed his airbag exploded in his mom's face, broke his
windshield and half destroyed his dash while he was idling in a
parking lot.
I don't like it either.
When it happens to you, you can talk.
Bad analogies too.
A better analogy is the low battery peeping of a smoke alarm.
Says your smoke alarm might not work in a fire.
Doesn't mean it will start a fire.

>As I said, every mechanical or electrical device will eventually fail. That
>includes the devices that are put in place to prevent failure.

Right. That's why bombs are blowing up all over for no apparent
reason, and airplanes are falling from the sky.
BTW, you won't find one auto manufacturer admitting an airbag will
deploy in an untouched parked car, airbag warning or not.
Just can't happen according to them.
But it just happened to my son.
That's all I came to say.

--Vic

On Sat, 21 May 2011 21:37:38 +0000 (UTC), Brent
> wrote:

>On 2011-05-21, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:
>>
>> "Vic Smith" > wrote
>>> Guy is coming out tomorrow to replace the windshield, about $200.
>>
>> No insurance? Perhaps not on a '97.
>>
>>
>>> He says the airbag light was coming on intermittently for a month or
>>> so until about half a year ago, then stopped when the bulb burned
>>> out..
>>> Anyway, an airbag going off like this is pure bull****.
>>> If he comes up with an answer from the GM mechs I'll follow up.
>>
>> So he had months of warning that there was a problem, he ignored it, now it
>> is bull****?
>>
>> Anything mechanical or electrical will eventually fail from wear, stress,
>> corrosion, or defect. I guess the lesson here is not to ignore warnings.
>
>Airbags are explosives. The fail condition for anything that can
>explode should be not to explode when put into a consumer product. It
>doesn't matter that an intermittent warning light was ignored, failure
>should mean not exploding. There is a glaring error in the FMEA process
>with that car.
>

Probably a fluke on this 16 year old car.
But it's happening with a lot of different cars.
VW and Ford seem to be leaders.
Not just older cars either.
Detonation algorithms are "proprietary."
My kid says he's going have GM pull the codes with a Tech 2 then see
if he wants to spend the money to replace the bags.
I suspect he won't because he's already talking about a no-bag
steering wheel he has his eyes on.
Dollars to donuts GM will tell him the bag can't deploy like it did,
no matter what the codes.
It's "impossible."
There's a 4" flap of maybe 3/16" thick metal from the airbag cannister
that blew straight up and destroyed the trim that runs along the
windshield. Have to bend it back down level to replace the trim which
he already got at the boneyard. We put channel locks on it and it's
really tough to bend until the windshield is pulled.
I was surprised the airbag explosion could mangle metal like that.

--Vic

On 22 May 2011 09:59:35 -0400, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

>Vic Smith > wrote:
>>Anyway, an airbag going off like this is pure bull****.
>>If he comes up with an answer from the GM mechs I'll follow up.
>
>It happens. It's bad, but it happens. It's the risk of active safety
>devices, that they can sometimes activate inappropriately.
>
>There were several Toyota models that would fire the airbags if you used
>a 2M VHF walkie-talkie in or near the car.
>
>Either way, it's worth trying to figure out what happened here. If
>indeed the car has one accelerometer for both airbags, then you know the
>problem is way downstream of the accelerometer. EMI issues and ground
>noise are popular offenders.
>
>Been noticing any alternator noise in the radio recently?
>--scott

No, seems the electirics are all fine.
But I'll ask. He might have mentioned something about an alt
recently.
I'm going to insist he take it right to GM for an airbag system read
with the Tech 2 and offer to pay for it.
Just for curiosity's sake really.
It's in my garage now, and the windshield guy is coming tomorrow.
I think he just wants to dump the bags.
He's a full ASE tech and has pulled and replaced many airbags.
I had the same thoughts about radio waves, thinking the detonation
charge might blow with errant currents due to it's age.
But I don't know.
First thing I asked is if he or my wife were using their cells phones.
No, He was rummaging in the driver door side pocket and my wife had
just bent over in her seat to pick up her tea bottle on the floor.
Not sure about the crowd outside the car. It was ain a shopping mall
parking lot.
Doubt I'll get much useful from GM, but hey.
I think it's just one of those fluke deals where you never get an
answer.

--Vic

"Vic Smith" > wrote in > Doubt I'll get much
useful from GM, but hey.
> I think it's just one of those fluke deals where you never get an
> answer.
>
> --Vic

I, perhaps erroneously, thought that safety issues like this
didnt follow the same warranty rules as the more common
failures.

I would think this might be a potential liability area for GM,
although they traditionally duck liability like Obama ducks
responsibility.

On 2011-05-22, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:
>
> "Brent" > wrote
>> Airbags are explosives. The fail condition for anything that can
>> explode should be not to explode when put into a consumer product. It
>> doesn't matter that an intermittent warning light was ignored, failure
>> should mean not exploding. There is a glaring error in the FMEA process
>> with that car.
>>
>
> First, we know the airbag went off, but we do no know what failed and why.

FMEA should have covered the whys, whatifs, etc.

> The airbag is explosive and may not have failed at all, but the sensor or
> relay, or other triggering device may have failed, this telling the airbag
> to do what it is intended to do.

This is what FMEA is for.

> Was anything tampered with? Modified? Bumper in a crash of any sort?

Perhaps. however foreseeable items should be in the FEMA.

> The only thing we know for certain is the car owner chose to ignore a
> warning. Given that it was MONTHS of warning, the fault lies with him. If
> you know a bomb is going to go off when the counter gets to zero, you are a
> fool to stand by when you have time to get out or do something.

Ignoring the light should be part of the FEMA.

> If your smoke detector goes off in the middle of the night, would you ignore
> it? When the low oil light goes on do you ignore it? Brake failure light?
> There are consequences to the actions, or lack thereof, and no one else to
> blame.

I don't think you understand what a FEMA is.

> As I said, every mechanical or electrical device will eventually fail. That
> includes the devices that are put in place to prevent failure.

And that's why engineers do FEMAs, to make sure explosive failure is at
least exceedingly rare.

On Sun, 22 May 2011 11:24:26 -0500, Vic Smith
> wrote:

>On 22 May 2011 09:59:35 -0400, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>
>>Vic Smith > wrote:
>>>Anyway, an airbag going off like this is pure bull****.
>>>If he comes up with an answer from the GM mechs I'll follow up.
>>
>>It happens. It's bad, but it happens. It's the risk of active safety
>>devices, that they can sometimes activate inappropriately.
>>
>>There were several Toyota models that would fire the airbags if you used
>>a 2M VHF walkie-talkie in or near the car.
>>
>>Either way, it's worth trying to figure out what happened here. If
>>indeed the car has one accelerometer for both airbags, then you know the
>>problem is way downstream of the accelerometer. EMI issues and ground
>>noise are popular offenders.
>>
>>Been noticing any alternator noise in the radio recently?
>>--scott
>

Here's the end of this story.
A Pontiac guy on a forum told him the control module is under the
passenger carpet sitting on the floor pan, and if it gets wet there
corrosion can cause havoc.
The kid checked it out and found the carpet damp there.
Didn't pull out the seat and carpet
He knew some water was getting in at a wheel well but didn't get
around to fixing it because it wasn't bad.
He clarified the warning light issue. It flickered a couple times
then went out. He figured it was an instrument cluster issue.
The light is back now.
He took the car in to GM this morning and they couldn't get a read
on the airbag system. No response.
Didn't charge him.
Estimate to fix the system is close to $3k.
His fiance caved on her insistence of working airbags when he told her
that.
Car is worth max $1800 - if the air bags system is good.
So he's going to put in the boneyard vent piece and glue
the airbag cover back on.
He'll get the new bagless steering wheel he has his eyes on.
There are 6 million stories in the naked city.........

--Vic

On 5/24/2011 2:28 PM, Vic Smith wrote:

> Here's the end of this story.
> A Pontiac guy on a forum told him the control module is under the
> passenger carpet sitting on the floor pan, and if it gets wet there
> corrosion can cause havoc.
> The kid checked it out and found the carpet damp there.

Sounds very reasonable.

> Didn't pull out the seat and carpet
> He knew some water was getting in at a wheel well but didn't get
> around to fixing it because it wasn't bad.

Now he knows that it was bad, and what the result was!

> He clarified the warning light issue. It flickered a couple times
> then went out. He figured it was an instrument cluster issue.

A wise move would have been to check it out instead of 'guessing' it was
a cluster issue.

> The light is back now.
> He took the car in to GM this morning and they couldn't get a read
> on the airbag system. No response.

Because the module is totally dead now.

> Didn't charge him.
> Estimate to fix the system is close to $3k.

New module, new air bag, new dash piece, and probably more. I'd guess
that estimate was about right.

> His fiance caved on her insistence of working airbags when he told her
> that.
> Car is worth max $1800 - if the air bags system is good.
> So he's going to put in the boneyard vent piece and glue
> the airbag cover back on.
> He'll get the new bagless steering wheel he has his eyes on.
> There are 6 million stories in the naked city.........

And this is one of them! And a cautionary tale to not ignore odd
symptoms such as occasional flashing of the air-bag light.

>
> --Vic
>

FWIW, IMHO GM was not very bright putting a critical piece of equipment
under the seat where it could so easily be damaged by leaks. In northern
climates where snow and salt are common, it would be reasonable to
assume the module would be ruined.

--
I'm never going to grow up.

"PeterD" > wrote in message > FWIW, IMHO GM was not very
bright putting a critical piece of equipment
> under the seat where it could so easily be damaged by leaks. In northern
> climates where snow and salt are common, it would be reasonable to assume
> the module would be ruined.
>

Well, in the South, as you well know, we often get high
water. One would think that they would have engineered
this to be waterproof or would have moved it somewhere
else. It does not show much dedication to excellence, which
is one of the things that got them in trouble.

On Wed, 25 May 2011 08:09:04 -0500, "hls" > wrote:

>
>"PeterD" > wrote in message > FWIW, IMHO GM was not very
>bright putting a critical piece of equipment
>> under the seat where it could so easily be damaged by leaks. In northern
>> climates where snow and salt are common, it would be reasonable to assume
>> the module would be ruined.
>>
>
>Well, in the South, as you well know, we often get high
>water. One would think that they would have engineered
>this to be waterproof or would have moved it somewhere
>else. It does not show much dedication to excellence, which
>is one of the things that got them in trouble.

From what I've read airbag control modules are under the seat on most
cars.
My bottom line on this is if there's any indication of airbag system
malfunction, take it in to be fixed or pull the airbags.
Could be expensive. So you make a personal cost/benefit decision.
I suspect - from googling only - that are many thousands of cars
being driven with airbag warning lights flashing or fully on.
They are getting away with it, and don't know they're rolling the
dice. And maybe they're not.
Airbags also go off unnecessarily with no system warnings.
My son found out he was in a dice game, so he has a particular view.
He really dislikes airbags now, but understands it was a fluke not
likely to ever happen again.
All that said, we both believe that particular system on his '95
Bonneville if far from the best system because it allowed the airbag
to go off, whatever the warnings.
It's not a common occurrence, thankfully.

--Vic

On 5/25/2011 10:00 AM, Vic Smith wrote:
> On Wed, 25 May 2011 08:09:04 -0500, > wrote:
>
>>
>> > wrote in message> FWIW, IMHO GM was not very
>> bright putting a critical piece of equipment
>>> under the seat where it could so easily be damaged by leaks. In northern
>>> climates where snow and salt are common, it would be reasonable to assume
>>> the module would be ruined.
>>>
>>
>> Well, in the South, as you well know, we often get high
>> water. One would think that they would have engineered
>> this to be waterproof or would have moved it somewhere
>> else. It does not show much dedication to excellence, which
>> is one of the things that got them in trouble.
>
> From what I've read airbag control modules are under the seat on most
> cars.
> My bottom line on this is if there's any indication of airbag system
> malfunction, take it in to be fixed or pull the airbags.
> Could be expensive. So you make a personal cost/benefit decision.
> I suspect - from googling only - that are many thousands of cars
> being driven with airbag warning lights flashing or fully on.
> They are getting away with it, and don't know they're rolling the
> dice. And maybe they're not.

They are not getting away with anything, and yes they are rolling the
dice, big time.

> Airbags also go off unnecessarily with no system warnings.

However, to be fair, it is not very common. (Thank goodness!)

> My son found out he was in a dice game, so he has a particular view.
> He really dislikes airbags now, but understands it was a fluke not
> likely to ever happen again.

Maybe some day an air-bag will help prevent a serious injury to him or
his family, and he'll feel otherwise.

> All that said, we both believe that particular system on his '95
> Bonneville if far from the best system because it allowed the airbag
> to go off, whatever the warnings.
> It's not a common occurrence, thankfully.
>
> --Vic

I guess we all agree, very poor engineering. Electronics should never,
ever be at floor level in a vehicle. The environment is just way too
harsh, and I doubt that that module was weather proofed in any way either.

--
I'm never going to grow up.