do you think chinese cars will get better tech than japan/europe?

Kevin Bottorff wrote:
> y_p_w > wrote in news:x2wdg.7858$y4.511
> @newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net:

>>I don't particularly like it. But what can you do?

>this is brain dead simple. QUIT trading with our enemy. They are trying
>to defeat us just as they have since comuminsm began there. They have
>nothing we can not live with out. You do not help your enemy defeat you,
>unless you have empty headed gov. that refuses to honor the constitution.
>But we get what we vote for. KB

I know of only one company that avoids China on moral grounds. All
others, including those owned by haters of Communism, do everything
they can to get into China to save on labor costs because money speaks
louder than principle.

John S. wrote:

>Go back and read your automotive history. Look for an example of where
>the giants made fun of a new competitor. Look in the footnotes for
>xenophobic phrases "Their products are made from old beer cans". Then
>look at how the giants were completely blindsided.

>You might also want to consider that several non-chinese automakers are
>getting involved in joint ventures with chinese car companies. Finally
>consider how far china has come in producing quality products in a
>short time. Guess where most pc's are made now including the
>"Japanese" names...

>I'm sure that Toyota is not whistling in the dark.

I'm never one to dismiss the competition, but China is not Japan or
Korea, and China isn't producing quality products on its own but only
in close cooperation with foreign companies. Chinse-designed products
are still very rough and will remain so for at least another 5 years
for simpler products, 10 for more sophisticated ones.

wrote:
> John S. wrote:
>
> >Go back and read your automotive history. Look for an example of where
> >the giants made fun of a new competitor. Look in the footnotes for
> >xenophobic phrases "Their products are made from old beer cans". Then
> >look at how the giants were completely blindsided.
>
> >You might also want to consider that several non-chinese automakers are
> >getting involved in joint ventures with chinese car companies. Finally
> >consider how far china has come in producing quality products in a
> >short time. Guess where most pc's are made now including the
> >"Japanese" names...
>
> >I'm sure that Toyota is not whistling in the dark.
>
> I'm never one to dismiss the competition, but China is not Japan or
> Korea, and China isn't producing quality products on its own but only
> in close cooperation with foreign companies. Chinse-designed products
> are still very rough and will remain so for at least another 5 years
> for simpler products, 10 for more sophisticated ones.

Certainly there are some segments of China's indigenous manufacturing
that truly values craftsmanship/workmanship. It's generally in small
scale production, and usually not sold at the prices that Western
companies/consumers are willing to pay for something with a "Made
in China" label.

What I've seen in my visits to China are some bewildering shortcuts. I
was quite surprised to see 40-story tall buildings made with a frame
of masonry and reinforcing bars. I swear - they just piled hollow
cement bricks, placed rebar in the holes, and poured concrete in
there. It was stacked all the way to the top like that. I live in
earthquake country, and a 5-story building here is built with a steel
I-beam frame. My folks built a small addition over their garage, and
they were required to support it with several I-beams.

** ** **

Speaking of Japan, anyone remember "Dr. Strangelove"?


General Ripper: Mandrake, were you ever a prisoner of war?

Group Capt. Mandrake: Well, yes I was Jack, as a matter of fact I was.

General Ripper: Did they torture you?

Group Capt. Mandrake: Yes Jack, I was tortured by the Japanese,
if you must know, not a pretty story.

General Ripper: Well, what happened?

Group Capt. Mandrake: Oh Well, I don't know, Jack, difficult to think
of under these conditions, but well, they got me on the old
Ragoon-Ichinawa railway. I was laying train lines for the bloody
Japanese puff-puff's.

General Ripper: No, I mean when they tortured you, did you talk?

Group Capt. Mandrake: Ah, oh, no, I don't think they wanted me to
talk really, I don't think they wanted me to say anything. It was
just their way of having a bit of fun, the swines. Strange thing is
they make such bloody good cameras.

wrote:
> Kevin Bottorff wrote:
> > y_p_w > wrote in news:x2wdg.7858$y4.511
> > @newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net:
>
> >>I don't particularly like it. But what can you do?
>
> >this is brain dead simple. QUIT trading with our enemy. They are trying
> >to defeat us just as they have since comuminsm began there. They have
> >nothing we can not live with out. You do not help your enemy defeat you,
> >unless you have empty headed gov. that refuses to honor the constitution.
> >But we get what we vote for. KB
>
> I know of only one company that avoids China on moral grounds. All
> others, including those owned by haters of Communism, do everything
> they can to get into China to save on labor costs because money speaks
> louder than principle.

Sure. The US Government has been supporters of any number of corrupt
regimes around the world. I think the biggie is when said countries
happen to have a decent supply of oil, and are willing to sell to the
US. Another was "anti-communist" dictators, but pretty much any
old-style communism is gone. It's more like Communism Lite these days.

wrote:
> John S. wrote:
>
> >Go back and read your automotive history. Look for an example of where
> >the giants made fun of a new competitor. Look in the footnotes for
> >xenophobic phrases "Their products are made from old beer cans". Then
> >look at how the giants were completely blindsided.
>
> >You might also want to consider that several non-chinese automakers are
> >getting involved in joint ventures with chinese car companies. Finally
> >consider how far china has come in producing quality products in a
> >short time. Guess where most pc's are made now including the
> >"Japanese" names...
>
> >I'm sure that Toyota is not whistling in the dark.
>
> I'm never one to dismiss the competition, but China is not Japan or
> Korea, and China isn't producing quality products on its own but only
> in close cooperation with foreign companies.


Well, of course all three countries are different. But all three were
underestimated by the competition. There is not a manufacturer,
contractor or subcontractor around that does not work closely with it's
customers on design.



> Chinse-designed products
> are still very rough and will remain so for at least another 5 years
> for simpler products, 10 for more sophisticated ones.

You and I must be looking at different Chinese products. I have a
Chinese designed and made radio that beats it's competition in price
and equals the performance. Chinese made electronics and other
components are found in all manner of consumer products.

John S. wrote:
wrote:

>I'm sure that Toyota is not whistling in the dark.

>>I'm never one to dismiss the competition, but China is not Japan or
>>Korea, and China isn't producing quality products on its own but only
>>in close cooperation with foreign companies.

>Well, of course all three countries are different.

I don't mean they're merely different but that Korea and Japan have
long been much better than China is now, especially Japan.

>But all three were underestimated by the competition. There is not a manufacturer,
>contractor or subcontractor around that does not work closely with it's
>customers on design.

Some work very, very closely, others not closely enough, and in each
case the results show..

>>Chinse-designed products are still very rough and will remain so for
>> least another 5 years for simpler products, 10 for more sophisticated ones.

>You and I must be looking at different Chinese products. I have a
>Chinese designed and made radio that beats it's competition in price
>and equals the performance. Chinese made electronics and other
>components are found in all manner of consumer products.

The original-design products I've seen had design mistakes in firmware
that caused out of bounds conditions or even lock-ups that required
powering down and restarting, controls were laid out poorly, or plastic
pieces that broke much more than usual.

wrote:
> John S. wrote:
> wrote:
>
> >I'm sure that Toyota is not whistling in the dark.
>
> >>I'm never one to dismiss the competition, but China is not Japan or
> >>Korea, and China isn't producing quality products on its own but only
> >>in close cooperation with foreign companies.
>
> >Well, of course all three countries are different.
>
> I don't mean they're merely different but that Korea and Japan have
> long been much better than China is now, especially Japan.


Japan and Korea at one time had a reputation for producing some poor
quality goods but they have changed. I expect that China will move up
the learning curve very quickly.

>
> >But all three were underestimated by the competition. There is not a manufacturer,
> >contractor or subcontractor around that does not work closely with it's
> >customers on design.
>
> Some work very, very closely, others not closely enough, and in each
> case the results show..

Yes, but that tendency is not limited to China.


>
> >>Chinse-designed products are still very rough and will remain so for
> >> least another 5 years for simpler products, 10 for more sophisticated ones.
>
> >You and I must be looking at different Chinese products. I have a
> >Chinese designed and made radio that beats it's competition in price
> >and equals the performance. Chinese made electronics and other
> >components are found in all manner of consumer products.
>
> The original-design products I've seen had design mistakes in firmware
> that caused out of bounds conditions or even lock-ups that required
> powering down and restarting, controls were laid out poorly, or plastic
> pieces that broke much more than usual.

I've been working with representatives of a former Big 8 consulting
company on a database project and have seen more than enough screwups
in design and implementation. Misteaks are not a China only
phenomenon.

John S. wrote:

wrote:

>>I don't mean they're merely different but that Korea and Japan have
>>long been much better than China is now, especially Japan.

>Japan and Korea at one time had a reputation for producing some poor
>quality goods but they have changed. I expect that China will move up
>the learning curve very quickly.

But when you compensate for what Korea and Japan had to work with, they
were doing better than China is now. China also gets much more foreign
investment.

>You and I must be looking at different Chinese products. I have a
>Chinese designed and made radio that beats it's competition in price
>and equals the performance. Chinese made electronics and other
>components are found in all manner of consumer products.

>>The original-design products I've seen had design mistakes in firmware
>>that caused out of bounds conditions or even lock-ups that required
>>powering down and restarting, controls were laid out poorly, or plastic
>>pieces that broke much more than usual.

>I've been working with representatives of a former Big 8 consulting
>company on a database project and have seen more than enough screwups
>in design and implementation. Misteaks are not a China only
>phenomenon.

But design, development, and testing are rarely as thorough as with
most first-world companies.

I work for a consulting/air conditioning-heating/energy
management/economic forecasting company, and the consulting part is
mostly about listening to the low-level employees and telling
management what they say, charging far more than what those employees
are paid.