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Preventive maintenance for A604 transmission
What's the best preventive maintenance schedule for the A604
transmission? What helps the most? If you use ATF+4, that makes it shift smoother, right? But does it make it last longer? If you replace the fluid often, does that really make a difference? If you replace the filter often, does that? Is replacing the fluid with ATF+4 more important than replacing it often? What about the diagnostic codes? Is it important to get them checked often, even when there are no obvious symptoms? How much does it cost to get the codes checked? Do you get a printout of them or what? Should you get someone to manually inspect the inside of the transmission even when there are no diagnostic codes? How can you tell if the person who does it is competent to notice pending problems? How much are they likely to charge for the inspection? Do they routinely do it when they change the fluid and filter? If you call a dealer's service department on the phone and say "I want preventive maintenance on my A604 transmission", will they know what to do, and be able to tell you on the phone how much it will cost? Or do you have to give them a list of things to do? How reliable are most dealer service departments, for that kind of work? Are some of them likely to pretend they did preventive maintenance, because the person who does it might not actually know how to do it? Another question about this transmission is whether your cruising speed makes any difference. In other words, even when it's not shifting, just going steadily in the highest gear, is there any significant wear and tear on the transmission? Or does the wear and tear happen mostly during shifting? |
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Preventive maintenance for A604 transmission
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Preventive maintenance for A604 transmission
NewMan wrote:
> Basically, most shops stock Dexron III trans fluid because it is > cheap. Then they put it in your transmission with an additive called > "LubeGuard". This additive supposedly modifys the fluid > characteristics to match those of ATF. ....and practically guarantees the shop a steady stream of A604 rebuild business. > The shop that rebuilt my A604 - which BTW will NEVER touch my car EVER > again - had to rebuild my tranmission twice. I paid the first time, > the second time was on warranty. They used Dexron III with lubeguard. > I do not tink the failure was related to that I think it easily could have been. Wanna find out why, in picayune detail? Go read this carefully, paying particular attention to how ATF+4 performs compared to Dexron and to ATF+3: http://www.engin.umich.edu/~dastern/cars/982674.pdf > they said something > about planetary gears. They also said Dexron was acceptable. |
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Preventive maintenance for A604 transmission
NewMan wrote: > A CBC consumer show profiled a woman who had a piece of her > tranmission litterally punch through the casing. When she talked to > Chrysler, they said that they were NOT aware of the problem. When she > went to a reputable shop, the guy knew EXACTLY what she was talking > about. Said he repaired about 2 per week. And he actually had one in > the shop at that moment. He explained, in detail, refering to the one > in pieces what the problem was, and how easy it would have been to > prevent the problem if a small piece was added to the transmission. > They then tool the woman to talk to the head of Chrysler Canada's > Engineering department. He knew exactly what she was talking about, > but told her they were not prepared to help her since the van was more > than 4 years old, and had more than 110,000km on it. > > Chrysler KNOWS about the problems, but I suspect they have created a > lovely little after-market cash cow that they have no vested interest > in losing. > Typical "spinout" final drive failure....usually caused by excessive wheel spin in a stuck-in-the-snow situation. (The lady in the report lives in northern Ontario). The "small piece" referred to is just a bandaid fix retainer to prevent the freed up differential pinion shaft (because its roll pin has been broken) from totalling the case after the diff. pinions and shaft have already been messed up and welded together. Just one of the disadvantages of housing the transmission and the final drive gears in a single box. A transaxle failure, yes...a transmission failure, no. |
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Preventive maintenance for A604 transmission
"cavedweller" > wrote in message ups.com... > > NewMan wrote: > > > A CBC consumer show profiled a woman who had a piece of her > > tranmission litterally punch through the casing. When she talked to > > Chrysler, they said that they were NOT aware of the problem. When she > > went to a reputable shop, the guy knew EXACTLY what she was talking > > about. Said he repaired about 2 per week. And he actually had one in > > the shop at that moment. He explained, in detail, refering to the one > > in pieces what the problem was, and how easy it would have been to > > prevent the problem if a small piece was added to the transmission. > > They then tool the woman to talk to the head of Chrysler Canada's > > Engineering department. He knew exactly what she was talking about, > > but told her they were not prepared to help her since the van was more > > than 4 years old, and had more than 110,000km on it. > > > > Chrysler KNOWS about the problems, but I suspect they have created a > > lovely little after-market cash cow that they have no vested interest > > in losing. > > > > Typical "spinout" final drive failure....usually caused by excessive > wheel spin in a stuck-in-the-snow situation. (The lady in the report > lives in northern Ontario). The "small piece" referred to is just a > bandaid fix retainer to prevent the freed up differential pinion shaft > (because its roll pin has been broken) from totalling the case after > the diff. pinions and shaft have already been messed up and welded > together. > Which is pointless because once that happens to the diff, the transmission is worthless as a core, it costs more money to buy all the parts to fix it up than for a trans shop to just toss it to the aluminum recyclers and get another one out of a wrecking yard to rebuild, that hasn't failed due to abuse. > Just one of the disadvantages of housing the transmission and the final > drive gears in a single box. A transaxle failure, yes...a transmission > failure, no. > Transaxle failure? That is like driving the car off a cliff then complaining that it's all bent up now and you can't drive it, must be a design defect. No, not a transaxle failure, a user failure. Ted |
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Preventive maintenance for A604 transmission
"NewMan" > wrote in message ... > On Fri, 31 Mar 2006 02:28:55 -0500, wrote: > > >What's the best preventive maintenance schedule for the A604 > >transmission? > > That depends upon you driving habbits and the load you put on the > transmission. > No, you should always follow the SEVERE duty schedule in the factory shop manual with one caveat. If your using ATF +4 in a vehicle that came with ATF+3, the factory SEVERE fluid change schedule should be doubled. This is because ATF+4, being synthetic, lasts about twice as long as ATF+3. (at least, according to the factory manual) > > What helps the most? If you use ATF+4, that makes it > >shift smoother, right? > > No. If you use ATF+4, then your tranmission will work as designed! The > A604 was DESIGNED to use either ATF+3 or ATF+4 depending upon which > year it was made in. No, the A604 will use either fluid just fine. The big difference is that ATF +3 wears out faster. Look at a transmission manual, there were no changes in the post ATF+4 years that were in response to the commencement of use of ATF+4. There are some claims floating around that there were "programming changes" to the transmission TCM post-ATF+4 but Chrysler does not make public what the programming changes to the TCMs actually do, and in any case, the 1996-99 vehicles that came with ATF +3 as factory fill use the same firmware updates as the ATF +4 factory fill vehicles, at least, today they do. The price of ATF+4 has gone down, and also Chrysler announced last year they would start licensing it to the aftermarket, so presumably the monopoly on ATF+4 will be broken sooner or later. Some individual dealers still are gouging for ATF+4 however. I think if you get it nowadays from a non-gouging dealer, that it costs double what ATF+3 costs in the aftermarket, so it is pretty much a wash on fluid costs between the two fluids now, there is no longer much incentive to use ATF+3. > There are EXTENSIVE discussions available if you > Google the history of this newsgroup. > > Basically, most shops stock Dexron III trans fluid because it is > cheap. No, they stock it because they cannot get ATF+4 from their distributors, they have to buy it from Chrysler, which is a nuisance. It also takes more space to store yet another fluid. The shops pass along the cost of the fluids to the customers so they don't care about the price, they probably would buy ATF+4 if they could simply tell their fluid dealers to stock it along with Dexron, that is why the announcement from Chrysler is so welcome. > Then they put it in your transmission with an additive called > "LubeGuard". This additive supposedly modifys the fluid > characteristics to match those of ATF. > > The shop that rebuilt my A604 - which BTW will NEVER touch my car EVER > again - had to rebuild my tranmission twice. I paid the first time, > the second time was on warranty. They used Dexron III with lubeguard. > I do not tink the failure was related to that, they said something > about planetary gears. > The planetary gears are under high stress and are a common failure item, and you can get replacement gears from Chrysler or from the aftermarket - the Chrysler gears are more expensive but the steel in them is a lot higher quality. If yours broke, and they got cheap Chinese gears in there made out of putty it's no wonder they failed again. > Be that as it may, the trans did work after that. However it rean > pretty rough. Hard shifts - especially downshifts. Not smooth at all. > I was just praying real hard. > > That was until I had the coil pack changed, and had them do the fluid coil pack, are you sure you don't mean selonoid pack? > change at the same time. This was a different, and very reputable > shop. They told me that over the years they had never had a repair > that was a result of using the Dexron III fluid - HOWEVER - they > noticed exactly what I did, namely than when ATF+3 or +4 was used, > these tranmissions worked much better "smoother" as it were. > > This observation would be received here with mixed levels of > acceptance. I don't think so, I think everyone agrees that this is the case. > There are those here who have had horrendous experiences > which they attribute to the use of the wrong fluid in the tranmission. > So it is hard to say. > > I will say this, however, if the DESIGN ENGINEERS say that you NEED a > certain kind of fluid, don't you think it is in your best interests to > just suck up the extra cost and USE IT??? My trans shop has. They feel > that it is just good business practice to use the right materials for > the job, and if it costs a little extra, but prevents potential > warranty claims and premature failure (which would lead to poor > customer satisfaction), then they are prepared to charge a little more > and do the job right. They are CAA / AAA approved, and have a wall of > "Thank You" letters from former customers, so they must be doing > something right. > Not using ATF +3 or ATF +4 in these is basically a warranty violation since you are not using the manufacturer recommended fluid. > >But does it make it last longer? > > On balance of probabilities, I would say, Yes. > > > If you > >replace the fluid often, does that really make a difference? > > Yes. If the fluid breaks down, then it cannot protect the internal > components properly. This will lead to component wear and premature > failure. > > > If you > >replace the filter often, does that? > > You replace the filter when you replace the fluid. Beware shops that > replace the fluid by tapping into the lines and circulating the new > fluid in and sucking the old fluid out without droppong the pan to > replace the filter. It costs more to drop the pan and replace the > filter, but it is well worth it. > When the pan is off if your doing it yourself, you would be wise to take the pan to a trans shop to weld in a drain plug. The usual procedure around here is to drill a hole, weld a nut to the inside of the pan, then weld a washer on top of that, then screw in an allen-screw. The result does not leave a drain plug sticking out the bottom of the transmission, inviting some road hazard to snap it off. And it makes fluid changes a lot easier since you don't have to take a bath in fluid when the pan comes off. > When my shop replaced the coil pack, they dropped the pan as part of > the diagnostic porcess. Since the trans was in "limp mode" they wanted > to see if there were metal bits in the pan. Even if your trans is not > in limp mode, you want to check for this anyways! > > You definiely want to change the filter. You would NEVER think to > change your engine oil without changing the filter, why do this to > save a few bucks??? If the filter is clogged, then the oil wont > circulate properly - leading to loss of pressure, premature wear, and > premature failure. > > > Is replacing the fluid with > >ATF+4 more important than replacing it often? > > Just use ATF +4 when you replace it. How often you replace it depends > on your useage level. > mileage. > > What about the > >diagnostic codes? Is it important to get them checked often, even > >when there are no obvious symptoms? > > Well if the trans is running fine, there should be no codes as such. > However, the computer stores data about things like fluid volumes used > during internal transmission operations. At least this is what my shop > told me. They said that the fluid volume used for my high gear shift > was a little low. But after replacing the coil pack, they reset the > computer, reprogrammed the trans and drive it for a while. When they > double checked the values, they were all within limits. > > So, by periodically checking the data in the computer, you could get a > heads up that problems were on the way. > The only thing you can really get a heads up on is clutch wear, but if you are driving it gently the clutches should last at least 100K miles, a few people have got 200K miles on original clutches, it is more likely something else in the trans will break first. > > How much does it cost to get the > >codes checked? > > My shop will read the computer for free. Takes about 10 minutes. They > do not require an appointment - just drop in. > > > Do you get a printout of them or what? > > They did show me the data display on their computer reading device > (looked like a small hand-held scope with an LCD display). > > > Should you get > >someone to manually inspect the inside of the transmission even when > >there are no diagnostic codes? > > If they drop the pan to change the filter they should have a quick > look for obvious signs of problems like metal bits in the pan. > > > How can you tell if the person who > >does it is competent to notice pending problems? > > You can't. > > > How much are they > >likely to charge for the inspection? Do they routinely do it when > >they change the fluid and filter? > > > > They should, and it should be no extra charge. > > >If you call a dealer's service department on the phone and say "I want > >preventive maintenance on my A604 transmission", will they know what > >to do, and be able to tell you on the phone how much it will cost? > > Don't know. I don't trsut dealers any farther than I can throw them - > ESPECIALLY with something like this. They charge "shop forman" rate, > and put the must junior flunky on your car. If he screws up, then they > say it was your fault, or they try to weisel out of covering the full > cost of their mistake. They are also influenced by Chrysler not to > acknowledge certain problems. > > A reputable independant shop will not mince words with you about what > is going on. > > A CBC consumer show profiled a woman who had a piece of her > tranmission litterally punch through the casing. When she talked to > Chrysler, they said that they were NOT aware of the problem. When she > went to a reputable shop, the guy knew EXACTLY what she was talking > about. Said he repaired about 2 per week. And he actually had one in > the shop at that moment. He explained, in detail, refering to the one > in pieces what the problem was, and how easy it would have been to > prevent the problem if a small piece was added to the transmission. > They then tool the woman to talk to the head of Chrysler Canada's > Engineering department. He knew exactly what she was talking about, > but told her they were not prepared to help her since the van was more > than 4 years old, and had more than 110,000km on it. > > Chrysler KNOWS about the problems, but I suspect they have created a > lovely little after-market cash cow that they have no vested interest > in losing. > The only people that break differential pins on these are people that wheelspin. I've seen plenty of these transmissions in wrecks in wrecking yards, and only once have I seen one where the case was shattered like this. However it rarely snows here, that is probably why. > > Or > >do you have to give them a list of things to do? How reliable are > >most dealer service departments, for that kind of work? > > Like I said, I don't trust them, so I don't use them. I therefore > cannot comment. > > > Are some of > >them likely to pretend they did preventive maintenance, because the > >person who does it might not actually know how to do it? > > > > I doubt that. I think they would do the work. But the question is, did > they do it properly? > > >Another question about this transmission is whether your cruising > >speed makes any difference. In other words, even when it's not > >shifting, just going steadily in the highest gear, is there any > >significant wear and tear on the transmission? Or does the wear and > >tear happen mostly during shifting? > > I would say the wear and tear happens from a combination of bad > design, and improper use. There is a higher probability that wear > occurs during shifting, but it could happen doing "jack-rabbit" starts > from a stand-still as well. It could also happen if the tires are > allowed to spin. > > In general, the ideal running condition would be to accelerate to > fighway speed, set the cruise control, and never stop again. Even at > higher speeds like 80 MPH, everything would read a steady state. Fluid > would warm up and circulate, you would never downshift, and I bet you > would go for 400,000 miles. Be interesting to make a test bed on a > dynamometer and do this to see just how long the puppy would last. > > > The bottom line is, don't drive the A604 or 41te hard. Watch your > mileage, and do your PM at a reputable shop. Change the fluid with > ATF+4, and drop the pan to replace the filter. And don't tow heavy > loads with the car. Do all this, and the trans will get a much longer > life before major repairs are required. Also, add a trans cooler, this is important! The wrecking yards are full of them, just go find one and flush it out really good. Unless your driving in freezing temperatures, the trans fluid will never become too cold. Just as a FYI, when I put my 94 T&C back together last year I initially plumbed in ONLY the accessory cooler (which goes in front of the radiator) and ran it like this for a month, because I wanted to be positive that there were no coolant leaks into the in-radiator-tank transmission cooler. Once I was satisfied with that, I plumbed in the in-radiator-tank transmission cooler UPSTREAM of the aftermarket air-cooler, and my transmission fluid temperatures rose HIGHER. My take on it is that the in-radiator-tank cooler really does little actual cooling. Ted |
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Preventive maintenance for A604 transmission
Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > "cavedweller" > wrote in message > ups.com... > > > > NewMan wrote: > > > > > A CBC consumer show profiled a woman who had a piece of her > > > tranmission litterally punch through the casing. When she talked to > > > Chrysler, they said that they were NOT aware of the problem. When she > > > went to a reputable shop, the guy knew EXACTLY what she was talking > > > about. Said he repaired about 2 per week. And he actually had one in > > > the shop at that moment. He explained, in detail, refering to the one > > > in pieces what the problem was, and how easy it would have been to > > > prevent the problem if a small piece was added to the transmission. > > > They then tool the woman to talk to the head of Chrysler Canada's > > > Engineering department. He knew exactly what she was talking about, > > > but told her they were not prepared to help her since the van was more > > > than 4 years old, and had more than 110,000km on it. > > > > > > Chrysler KNOWS about the problems, but I suspect they have created a > > > lovely little after-market cash cow that they have no vested interest > > > in losing. > > > > > > > Typical "spinout" final drive failure....usually caused by excessive > > wheel spin in a stuck-in-the-snow situation. (The lady in the report > > lives in northern Ontario). The "small piece" referred to is just a > > bandaid fix retainer to prevent the freed up differential pinion shaft > > (because its roll pin has been broken) from totalling the case after > > the diff. pinions and shaft have already been messed up and welded > > together. > > > > Which is pointless because once that happens to the diff, the transmission > is worthless as a core, it costs more money to buy all the parts to fix it > up > than for a trans shop to just toss it to the aluminum recyclers and get > another > one out of a wrecking yard to rebuild, that hasn't failed due to abuse. > > > Just one of the disadvantages of housing the transmission and the final > > drive gears in a single box. A transaxle failure, yes...a transmission > > failure, no. > > > > Transaxle failure? That is like driving the car off a cliff then > complaining > that it's all bent up now and you can't drive it, must be a design defect. > > No, not a transaxle failure, a user failure. > > Ted Sorry, I don't understand what's "pointless". If after "that happens" means the diff. pinion has punched a hole in the side of the case then the case is obviously shot. If the pinion shaft is screwed up, and its roll pin is broken, but the shaft is held in position by the stamped ears that bolt to the carrier, (the "small piece" referred to by the poster to whom I responded originally) then the case is OK and could be reused. That's assuming that the differential distress is detectable and is detected by the operator before debris finds it's way into the transmission side and causes more problems. I believe in the CBC story, the lady that complained bought the car used from a local dealer. That's snow country up there, and all bets are off. According to the CBC program, the vehicle was behaving properly (I guess meaning that the transmission was shifting normally) and a loud "bang" was heard/felt and then the transmission (sic) was seen to spew its fluids all over the ground. Sounds like a transaxle failure to me and I certainly didn't suggest there was a design defect. I thought my "..usually caused by excessive wheel spin in a stuck-in-the-snow situation.." might have indicated that. In that light, your cliff metaphor (?) is, well, curious.... |
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Preventive maintenance for A604 transmission
Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > > The price of ATF+4 has gone down, > $22.05 (Cdn) per 4 liter jug at a southwestern Ontario dealer mid-March |
#9
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Preventive maintenance for A604 transmission
Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
> the A604 will use either fluid just fine. The big difference is that > ATF +3 wears out faster. Wrong, wrong, wrongity wrong. Yes, it'll wear out faster, but that's the least of your worries with +3, which -- compared to +4 and to other fluids -- turns out to be a fairly ****ty fluid in many critical transmission-protection performance criteria. Go look at Chrysler's SAE paper on trans fluid comparing Dexron, Mercon, ATF+3 and ATF+4. I posted the link earlier today in this thread. > they cannot get ATF+4 from their distributors, > they have to buy it from Chrysler, which is a nuisance. Not really. They all have supply lines set up with local Chrysler dealers for dealer-only parts. > The shops pass along the cost of the > fluids to the customers so they don't care about the price They can charge more for "special fluid" whether or not they install it. DS |
#10
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Preventive maintenance for A604 transmission
On 31 Mar 2006 19:27:18 -0800, "Daniel J. Stern"
> wrote: >They can charge more for "special fluid" whether or not they install >it. Will a dealer's service department normally use ATF+4 without being asked, or do you have to tell them to use it? Will they normally use a good filter without being asked, or do you have to tell them what filter you want? I know some shops would put metal shavings in the pan to convince you they should rebuild the transmission when it doesn't need it. But do dealers' service departments do that too? If I look for a good independent mechanic, how can I tell when I've found a good one? |
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